Terri Schiavo, Now that we have all calmed down

[Cervaise]

@Mehitabel

allegations of abuse were unresolved

Allegations of your grinding corpses into fruit smoothies are also unresolved.

[lekatt]

@Martin Hyde

I don’t care if she was abused or not, we as a society cannot make the decision to kill another human being in that state unless we have clear cut evidence the person agreed to such an action beforehand.

Excellent point. What I want to know about is the autopsy, where is it? What did it show? The time has passed, if the results are not made public then something is wrong. Does anyone know anything about it?

[Club_33]

@lekatt

Excellent point. What I want to know about is the autopsy, where is it? What did it show? The time has passed, if the results are not made public then something is wrong. Does anyone know anything about it?

That question was answered in post #11.

[sewalk]

@Mehitabel

allegations of abuse were unresolved

I think the correct term here is unsubstantiated but then that diminishes the rhetoric of your argument, doesn’t it?

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

Before this gets out of hand, I would once again like to register my objection to the means of death. I was hoping that this would open up a rational debate about active euthanasia, but it unfortunately didn’t.

Nobody deserves do die due to starvation. To me, that’s the bottom line.

[Askia]

It was starvation and dehydration with medication for pain.

A good compromise pisses everybody off.

Her euthanasia could have been achieved far more painlessly in a matter of minutes.

I’m impatient to see the autopsy results. Soon.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

Years ago The Economist (or maybe The Times) had an article describing a ‘painful death by starvation.’ A few days later there was an odd (and so typically British) letter. I did not cut it out, but it was along the lines of:

Sir,
I had the misfortune of experiencing starvation twice, once in (some horrid Nazi place) and again when my yacht was dismasted during an unfortunate storm while completing the 1950 Round The World Race.

In both cases I lost well over fifty pounds and must say I found my situation distressing but not especially painful.

Signed,
Alford Blimp,
Colonel, The Guards
DSO and all that …

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

Experiences vary, I guess. I once had the pleasure of going without food for a week, and I can tell you that without a doubt it hurt like hell. Truthfully, the only thing that hurt worse was starting to eat again.

Based upon my own personal experience (anecdotal though it might be), starving to death would be a really bad way to go.

[BobLibDem]

But it would be considerably less painful if you had no cerebral cortex. If the US allowed euthanasia, then the remotest possibility of feeling pain could have been avoided. Since it isn’t, the only ethical alternative was pursued. I find it hard to believe that a person sufficiently brain dead as to be unresponsive to stimuli would have felt any pain associated with starvation.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

Even if I concede that Terri Schaivo was unable to feel pain (which I will for the purposes of this discussion), that was one case. This is not an all-that-unfrequent occurrence, even among people that ARE capable of feeling pain.

We need to do something about that. Again, just my opinion.

[BobLibDem]

In that case, we need to take a hard look at euthanasia. If there are situations where the medical outlook is hopeless for any sort of consciousness and if we wish to avoid the unpleasantries of starvation, then we need to choose either to legalize euthanasia in limited cases or resign ourselves to keep such people alive in perpetuity.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

Agreed.

[Askia]

Properly speaking, Schiavo was dehydrated to death.

Legal status
Judge Lynch of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court argued that death by dehydration symptoms was ‘Cruel and Violent’, commenting on the 1986 Brophy Case:

The mouth would dry out and become caked or coated with thick material.
The lips would become parched and cracked.
The tongue would swell, and might crack.
The eyes would recede back into their orbits and the cheeks would become hollow.
The lining of the nose might crack and cause the nose to bleed.
The skin would hang loose on the body and become dry and scaly.
The urine would become highly concentrated, leading to burning of the bladder.
The lining of the stomach would dry out and the sufferer would experience dry heaves and vomiting.
The body temperature would become very high.
The brain cells would dry out, causing convulsions.
The respiratory tract would dry out, and the thick secretions that would result could plug the lungs and cause death.
At some point within five days to three weeks, the major organs, including the lungs, heart, and brain, would give out and the patient would die.

[GLWasteful]

@lekatt

Excellent point. What I want to know about is the autopsy, where is it? What did it show? The time has passed, if the results are not made public then something is wrong. Does anyone know anything about it?

Why, precisely, would the autopsy results have anything to do with whether or not Ms Schiavo agreed to the course of action that was followed?

@Airman Doors

Experiences vary, I guess. I once had the pleasure of going without food for a week, and I can tell you that without a doubt it hurt like hell. Truthfully, the only thing that hurt worse was starting to eat again.

Based upon my own personal experience (anecdotal though it might be), starving to death would be a really bad way to go.

I thought that she received meds for pain. Am I misremembering?

Waste

[Fear_Itself]

@GLWasteful

I thought that she received meds for pain. Am I misremembering?

She received two small doses of morphine:

Felos said yesterday that Schiavo had never been on a morphine drip. She had received two 5-milligram suppository doses of morphine in the past 11 days, most recently two days ago, he said. Each dose was minimal, he said, and would have worn off in about four hours.

Dr. Sean Morrison, a professor of geriatrics and palliative care at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York, said the dosage of morphine was “less than taking one Percoset tablet” and unlikely to have any depressive effect on Schiavo’s breathing or to hasten death.

Another doctor with long experience treating patients at the end of life, Douglas Nelson of Hickory, N.C., said that providing morphine to a patient in a persistent vegetative state is unnecessary, because they would be unaware of pain or discomfort.

But, he said, “It’s not uncommon for the nurse to suggest, ‘Let’s just give her a suppository to be on the safe side.’”

That was on March 29, three days before she died. She received no additional morphine after that time.

[GLWasteful]

And that is fucked up. I don’t see how someone with a brain stem that had become liquid could feel pain anyway. It seems to me, though, that if they had given her what would be considered pain meds in line with what a conscious person might get, then they would have been pre-emptively covering their asses.

[Orual]

@Martin Hyde

I don’t care if she was abused or not, we as a society cannot make the decision to kill another human being in that state unless we have clear cut evidence the person agreed to such an action beforehand.

“We as a society” should never have been involved in the first place. That, I think, is by far the most disturbing aspect of this case.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

Society made the laws. Society set up the courts. Society appointed the judges. How much more could Society have involved.

It is remarkable, but I suppose a handful of Americans die each week just as TS did. She became a cause celeb only because of her parents. Those poor folks really suffered. All the more because of the people who gathered around them.

[Mockingbird]

@Martin Hyde

I don’t care if she was abused or not, we as a society cannot make the decision to kill another human being in that state unless we have clear cut evidence the person agreed to such an action beforehand.

So, under your concept all those executed under Bush during his time as the Governor of Texas were unjust as they probably didn’t agree to such an action before hand.

[Wartime_Consigliori]

@Paul in Saudi

She became a cause celeb only because of her parents.

I will reluctantly share a little theory I came up with when all this fuss n’ feathers was boiling over.

I believe the hand of God influenced the media saturation we witnessed, for this reason: God does not want Jeb Bush to become President.

Think about it- the Religious Right, which Jeb would need to secure the nomination, holds him somewhat responsible for her death, since he didn’t pull a George Wallace and send in the National Guard to reinsert her feeding tube. No way he can win their support now.

Yes, I know I’m crazy, thankyewverymuch.