Terri Schiavo, Now that we have all calmed down

One can only hope that you noticed the posters who claim to be conservatives who say that what Terri’s death was turned into was reprehensible. Or those who say that relatives &c who voted for Bush say the same thing?

No, it isn’t. Your interest is in your POV. Nothing wrong with that, as a rule, but you refuse to listen to the truth. You can’t handle the truth! Bah! I deride your truth handling ability. And the added Hemingway, mixed with some touchy feely new agey nonsense just makes you look silly.

Waste

Nope, I couldn’t really call these people what I usually do, because this is in General Debates. They wear the self-proclaimed mantle of “religious right” so, that’s as good a handle as any. Terri meant something to somebody. The truth means something to somebody (just not to you). Neither meant a damn thing to the bible beaters and politicians except as a talking point and way to grab attention/power. I saw the courts doing the right thing, over and over and over. They had integrity. They refused to knuckle under to the morons who were screaming for thunder and judgment. You don’t care about the right thing or truth or integrity or justice. You’re neither religious nor secular? Then what are you? Gotta pick a side. I used to be very religious. I saw disconnects between the fine words about love and peace, and the reality. Now I am more “secular”. Read the court rulings. Read the news articles and editorials. Check what was written on both sides and decide for yourself who were the liars and the Users. It is interesting that people from most religions condemned the side show - Jews, Baptists, Catholics, etc.
I have a living will, after procrastinating for a long long time, and it includes a very definitely worded Pull The Plug clause. I am a little bit liberal on some things, and also a bit libertarian on others. So what.

The only “problem” is people who keep to their narrow view, and label me (of all people) as a liberal left winger due to this one issue, on which I am right, and you are dead wrong.

One of the beautiful things about inner knowledge is understanding there are no “sides.” There is only honesty, truth, and love to pursue. I know you don’t understand my words, and will put your own spin to them. However, it is a beginning on the road to enlightenment. When you care about people, all people, and really care about learning the truth you will succeed in same. In the meantime don’t let me stop you from hating everyone that doesn’t agree with you.

Have a nice day.

I always listen to truth, just haven’t found it yet in this situation.

Yep, that’s certainly true. Downside is that you are sitting there with your fingers jammed firmly in your ears and calling everyone who doesn’t agree with you a “liberal” or a “religious fighter” both of which (stay with me now) are absolute nonsense. You wouldn’t know honesty, truth or love if they threw in together and pegged you until you bled from your eye sockets.

Shit the bed! Are you always so fucking sanctimonious? Nobody has spun your words. Quite to the contrary, you have gone to great lengths to claim that anyone who disagrees with what passes through your head hates the religious and is a liberal. Both of which, I leap to point out, are lies.

There you go again.

Well, no, you don’t. Because, see, many people have told you the truth in this very thread. And you’ve yet to demonstrate that you are in any way capable of listening. Or hearing. Or acknowledging the truth when it hits you with the force of a speeding eighteen wheeler. Too, as long as you hold to your wrongheaded ignorance, you’re not bloody likely to find any truth anytime soon.

Waste

The Schindlers testified in court, under oath, that their daughter’s wishes had no bearing. They testified in court that in the event that diabetes set in, they would approve the amputation of limbs to keep her “alive”. In the event of heart failure, they would approve opening her up and operating. Ghoulish, sick and twisted. A gross perversion of medicine. Deliberate mutilation for no good reason. They would do whatever it takes to keep the corpse intact in other words. Where is the love? They started a smear campaign against Michael Schiavo when he didn’t fall in line. They and the politicians and the “preachers” smeared the judges who had to rule on all the cases. At least one judge was getting death threats. Where is the love? There were people raising holy hell right in front of the hospital (hospice?) with no regar for the other patients there.

Some “preachers” would have all living wills cancelled out, denying a dying person even that one last chance at dignity. MY church ( the Catholics) have a policy we loosely call the Right To Die. It recognizes that there comes a time when the kindest thing to do is to just quit. To gently let go. It recognizes that to do otherwise is a horrible cruelty. To let go of someone you care about can sometimes be the only way let to show true love, as opposed to selfishly hanging on.

I understand your words perfectly. Now you understand mine.

lekatt, are you going to answer this? Or do you withdraw your statement that “You will see the support in the next elections.”?

He won’t, you know. In nearly 5 years of hanging around GD, I’ve never seen him provide evidence backing his position. Lekatt is an interesting phenomenon. He claims to speak truth, even when his assertions are disproven. He speaks of love, but acts hatefully to those who disagree with him. He makes assertions which are not only unsubstantiated, but unsubstantiable because they are completely false. Fortunately, the odds of him successfully influencing my life other than by annoying me on this message board are slight, and the former is easily negated.

CJ

I think the Schiavo case has given us the opportunity to have some meta-ethical dialogue about some important issues.

  1. The principle of finality. Let’s start with the one that is least controversial but probably most divisive in this case. Under our system, we let courts make decisions. Sometimes they make mistakes, but we have recognized that perfect knowledge is unattainable, and factual and legal consensus is impractical. Therefore, we allow trial courts to make findings of fact and conclusions of law. Once those decisions are made, our system of justice presumes that they are final (not necessarily 100% correct–but final).

A party who is unhappy with the result has a few chances to convince some courts with authority to review these decisions that the trial court made a mistake either by applying the wrong legal standards (These challenges are reviewed by appellate courts with no deference to the trial court. We call this standard de novo), or in evaluating the evidence (the standard applied here is more deferential to the trial court because the trial court actually heard the witnesses testify, and was in a better position to evaluate credibility than the appellate court, which can only read the paper record, and will normally only read the parts that the parties call to its attention), or applying the law to the facts.

In every case, issues will remain unresolved. Those who are convicted of certain crimes in some states are executed despite evidence that, if believed, would support the conclusion that they are innocent. Companies and individuals are ordered to pay large sums on money based on contested facts. If the facts were uncontested, a trial would be unneccessary.

Our system, then puts the final decision in the hands of judges, and it allows them to make mistakes and decisions involving discretion. Somebody has to make these decisions, and here it is our courts. See, Rehnquist’s 2004 year-end report.

  1. Treating like cases alike. Another meta-ethical principle that permeates our legal system is the principle of precedent: We treat like cases alike. This is not only a prudential concern, but one of equal protection. Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (2000). This principle is not without exception, but exceptions are made by the courts, especially for pending cases.

  2. Judicial independence. Once the judicial branch makes a decision, it is not for the legislative branch to dictate the results in that case. Rehnquist’s 2004 year-end report.

In view of these ideas, some of the arguments fall away:

a. There were factual issues in dispute. Not legally. The case was over, and all arguments had been presented to the courts. Of course courts can only give their opinions about factual issues, there is no epistemological archangel available to us who can judge cases. Here on earth, judges must decide, who else can? If we are talking about morality instead of legality, the existence of a factual dispute does not mean that one side’s version must be accepted. If the facts are truly in dispute a satisfactory moral solution must explain why the disputed facts are irrelevant, solve the moral dilemma while taking account of the disputed facts, or accept some pre-established method of resolving the factual dispute independently of the moral result desired. See, http://www.intractableconflict.org/m/fact-finding.jsp (and the links at the end).

b. This is a painful way for TS to die. This is one of those “disputed” issues. But for legal purposes, it doesn’t matter. In Schiavo, the issue was whether TS had indicated a desire to refuse treatment. Whether the refusal would result in suffering was not an issue that was before the court. I can refuse all sorts of medical treatment that results in my suffering. I realize others have pointed this out, but our laws legitimize killing of convicts and denial of food and medical care to indigent people. In fact,Michigan recently terminated dental coverage for medicaid recipients. If the elimination of suffering were of paramount importance, I would expect that those outcomes would be different. Getting back to finality, though, the legally approved decision makers all decided that TS had in fact indicated such a desire, and the error correction system had completed its work.

Legally, the discussion was over. But there were still objections. People claimed the decision was immoral.

By every established test, the decision was the law of the land, but does that end the inquiry? What about hard cases (cases where the law offends higher moral principles)? Does the law have moral force just because it is the law?

These questions have plagued philosophers for centuries. One answer is civil disobedience; http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/civ-dis.htm. Few would criticize a person for refusing to respect Dred Scott, for instance. And most would argue that Nazi laws were so immoral that they did not deserve respect. E.g., http://anthonydamato.law.northwestern.edu/Adobefiles/A85e-moral-dilemma.pdf. All well and good, but none of this establishes that the judges in this case acted wrongly. The fact that I morally disagree with a legal decision does not prove that my morality is the correct one. If we think that good judges are judges who follow the law as written, then a good batch handled the Schiavo case. If we don’t, then we need to come up with a different formula for describing good judges.

The personal attacks continue. If you will read my posts you will find them full of links to controlled studies, scientific studies, well documented data backed by other scientists and researchers. Sir you are not telling the truth. I have provided more real evidence of what I say than my opponents on every occasion. You and your friends just never read the data, or deny it exists because it runs counter to your favorite theories. My web site is full of real evidence for those who really care to do honest research.

Your brand of science is nothing more than an anti-religious cult preaching hate against religion. When I was young I remember a science that was real and free from the hate teachings of today. I will have nothing to do with your hate campaigns.

This thread is full of the attacks on religion, most threads on this board are full of attacks on religion, is science no more than that? What has happened to science? Very few people in the main stream of life care about who created the earth, or if evolution is accurate. They don’t want to hear the constant attacks on religion. Neither do they want to hear religious leaders attacks on the secular.

But they do want to see honesty, integrity, and true in all things.

lekatt, I did not attack you or your religion. Can you please address the point I brought up post 127?

Neither did I attack your religion (hard to do if I don’t even know what it is). I attacked the televangelists and radical right religious - the Falwells, Robertsons, Dobsons etc… the money grubbing fakes… the wolves in sheeps clothing. My attacks also were against the politicians who pander to them for their own selfish greedy reasons. I even countered with the guidelines given by a religion (mine, as issued by a pope and interpreted by cardinals and bishops). If pressed, I can also give direct quotes from Catholic priests, Protestant ministers and Jewish rabbis.

Where is your science? I didn’t notice any, just a stubborn and insulting brand of blind refusal to face reality. The Science says there was no hope for improvement ever. The Science indicated that no good was being done by prolonging death.

Honesty, integrity and truth? I think they are on our side.

lekatt, Siege is the LAST person I’d call anti-religious.

And yet you arm yourself with falsehoods and are the lone voice on this board still holding out for the lies of Terri’s parents being true.

In a word, yes.

Guess you didn’t read any of my posts.

You sound just like those preachers, you attack people and you become like them.
Science is not God, and science doesn’t have all the answers.

I guess the answer is “No”.

Boo-hoo. Are you going to get around to supporting your arguements or are you just going to make personal attacks?

It has a lot more answers than you, and its answers make sense.

I read your posts. I think you’re being wilfully ignorant so you don’t have to rethink your world view.