Heh. I was trying to think of a diplomatic way of saying that myself. I’m not really a fan of George Martin, but man, he’s leagues better than anything that’s ever been published under a D&D logo. Dragonlance aspires to two dimensional characters. They’ve actually got characters in there that are zero dimensional, which is a feat in and of itself.
Dragonlance was from a time when fantasy, with exceptions, was very simplistic, shallow, and formulaic.
I can understand someone having difficulty with the Malazan books in that they’re not the kind of books that take you by the hand and tell you what is happening and why. You’re supposed to figure it out. Hell, in the beginning of the 3rd book I was really pleased with myself that I had put together the pieces to realize the origin of the Imperial Warren. Probably the only big riddle Erikson has ever revealed the solution to in the same book in which he reveals the explanation.
I can understand someone not liking the GRRM books because it can be hard to find most of the characters likeable, and even less are sympathetic.
That being said, however, describing either series as “terrible” is just…nuts.
-Joe
Erikson is most definitely not working it out as he goes. He got a TEN book commitment from his publisher based on the strength of his complete story arc. Unprecedented in fantasy literature, I believe.
Do a reread and you’ll see threads from the first book coming to fruition in the seventh. Definitely not making it up as we go along.
And for those who think GRRM is a brutal killer of a writer, Erikson has done a pretty good job of keeping up, if not surpassing him. I was more shocked to see Whiskeyjack killed than I was to see Ned killed, and I was pretty damned shocked when Ned died.
-Joe
That’s actually one of the things I like best about Song of Ice and Fire. I easily tire of elves, fairies, magic swords, etc., so I don’t read a lot of traditional fantasy. I would not have picked this up if not for the raving reviews on the SDMB, and I was surprised by how much I liked the series. There’s just the right amount of magic for my taste.
Have you read any of Lois Bujold’s fantasy novels? They’ve got a similarly low-magic, all human setting, but Bujold isn’t nearly as brutal to her characters. Or rather, she is, but the brutality usually happens before the books starts, and the novel itself is the character’s coping with what’s happened to them in the past. If you haven’t already, check out The Curse of Chalion. It’s one of the best fantasy novels I’ve read in the last ten years.
I’d never heard of these Malazan books before, but based on the OP, I’m going to check them out. Anything compared to ASOIAF is worth a glance.
Yeah. Preferring Dragonlace to George R.R. Martin? Jesus Christ.
I’m picking up the threads of the plot, but what seems to be not-set-in-stone is the magic system, particularly the warrens – who can make use of them, what they do, etc.
I started taking notes at one point but quickly gave it up, as I had no clue what might be important. The good thing is that this is one series that I won’t mind re-reading.
And, naturally, none of the Malazan books are available at our library…
Yes, I picked those up because I love her Vorkosigan books. I enjoyed The Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls very much, and The Hallowed Hunt is in my to-read stack. I also bought a copy of the first Sharing Knife book, even though the description doesn’t really appeal to me, but I have yet to encounter a Bujold book I didn’t like.
Nope, sorry. Dragonlance started in 1984.
Pre-1984 great fantasy authors:
Roger Zelazny’s Amber series
Ursula LeGuin’s Earthsea and others
George R.R. Martin himself had several books out in the 1970s
Marion Zimmer Bradley
L. Sprague de Camp
C. J. Cherryh
Wendy & Richard Pini’s Elfquest comics
Madeleine L’Engle
Anne McCaffrey
Michael Moorcock
That’s just off the top of my head. These aren’t “exceptions” - there’s a ton of great fantasy out there from Tolkein’s time on up.
Thats just… ugh. Slaying Aerys was one of the greatest acts of heroism in the seven kingdoms, even the legendary heroes like Arthur Dayne did nothing to stop that mad man because to them their honor was more important than doing the right thing. Jamie was like the Michael Jordan of knights, and he threw it all away to save thousands of innocents and for that hes been shit on for most of his life. I’m not saying hes good, he did throw a kid out a window something even his own deranged sister didn’t aprove off but neither is he “re-examining his life” nor seeking redemption.
In response to Smeghead, Miller, and Kyla:
I admit that we may have very different tastes in literature. However, please believe me when I say that D&D-based novels aren’t the only ones I read. Far from it. Just recently I read the first two books in an incredible series by Scott Lynch. The books are called Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Seas Under Red Skies. These books absolutely blew me away, and they represent only two examples of the many non-D&D books I’ve read.
It was probably a mistake to only mention Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance as alternatives in the OP.
Based on all the replies in this thread, I think I will consider rereading ASOIF in the future and continue with the Malazan Book of the Fallen for a few more books.
I disagree(major spoilers through Toll The Hounds)
[spoiler]For GRRM, dead means dead. With the exception of that ex-priest who keeps bringing that bandit leader back to life(names escape me), the dead characters don’t come back(and those brought back by the ex-priest pay a heavy price).
In the Malazan series, it’s easier to count the significant characters who have died and not returned to life in one way or another:
- Felisin Paran
- Dujek Onearm
- Mammot
- Adjunct Lorn
- Pearl
I don’t count characters like Trull Sengar who have died so recently in the series that they haven’t had a chance to come back. On the other hand, the list of characters who have died and returned to life in one way or another is damn near endless:
- Ganoes Paran
- Tattersail
- Nightchill
- Bellurdan
- Every Bridgeburner who ever lived
- Hedge
- Kellanved
- Dancer
- Dassem Ultor
- Brys Beddict
- Hairlock
- Heboric (only for a moment, but still)
- Draconus
- Silchas Ruin
- Baudin
- Toc the Younger(several times)
- Itkovian
- Rhulad
- Bairoth Gild and Delum Thord(the Teblor spirits in Karsa Orlong’s sword)
- Phaed
No doubt there are many that I haved missed. I think that this is the greatest weakness in the Malazan series. The impermanence of death means takes a lot of the emotion out of the big death scenes. Felisin’s death is still a powerful scene for me because it’s so tragic. Brys Beddict’s death affected me in a similar way until Reaper’s Gale came out and Brys returned to life. Now Brys’ death means nothing, and when Trull Sengar died a few chapters later it didn’t phase me at all. I know he’ll be back soon enough.[/spoiler]
de gustibus non disputandum
I thought Mazalan was really appalling. The words “Proposed 10-book series” just send me into shudders of disgust – anyone who thinks their story can’t possibly be told in less than 10 books, quite simply needs an editor and a cock-punch, not in that order. Then again, I loathe Jordan, Martin, the whole lot of them that are so in love with the volume of their own words. IMHO, most fantasy is fairly bad these days (then again, 90% of everything is crap).
Honestly, if I were you (and it seems that I am) I would just stay away from the entire sword/sorcery genre (the chances of any given novel being good are small in a field as thoroughly plowed as that one) and try soe authors who go in a different direction.
You might check out the following authors:
Jacqueline Carey
China Mieville
J. Gregory Keyes
Juliet Marillier
Cory Doctorow
Some words on the subject from China Mieville – “Beyond the Tolkeinesque Fairyland We Know”
So, just grab an arbitrary number? Let the author tell the story he wants to tell.
Or, we could always go along with the old movie producer asking, “Do we really need four hobbits?”
-Joe
Heh. I just started reading the second of those. I really loved the first one, although it fell apart a bit at the end. A fun, vibrant writing style, terrific characterization, and and excellent, imaginative background work - he really manages to bring his world alive like few recent fantasy writers do.
All in all, the best fantasy I’ve read… since George R.R. Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire, actually.
Never managed to get into Malazan, though. I tried reading the first book and gave up about 3/4 of the way through. For one, there were so many characters, each scheming against the next, that I couldn’t keep track of who was against who and why I should care. For another, the magic system and mythology seemed needlessly complicated. But most of all, I never really got a *feel *for the world. Was it vaguely medieval? Renaissance? Roman? How did society work?How did the non-heroes live their lives? What were their cultural touchstones? What did they wear?
Atmosphere is key in fantasy, and Erikson’s book didn’t seem to have much of it. Plus, his naming sucked.
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS**
Now, I’ll admit that ‘Toll the Hounds’ is on the way from Amazon as we type this, but…
Ganeos never made it through Hood’s gate. Tattersail/Nightchill/Belduran didn’t come back as far as I can recall. You might, MIGHT, be able to count Silverfox, but that’s like saying that Lews Therin came back because of Rand Al’Thor.
Hedge, I’ll give you, since he seems at the end of ‘Reapers Gale’ to have actually, really, truly been brought back from a spirit to a real person. The rest of the Bridgeburners, though, seem to be trapped in some sort of quasi-undead limbo - or at least that’s the impression I got when they met with Paran in ‘Bonehunters’.
Kellanved, Dancer, and Dassem Ultor all Ascended, they didn’t die. I can’t remember all the details on Ultor, but the other two faked their own deaths, so I don’t know how they can be counted dead.
Hairlock never even died, he just got his soul stick in another body. Toc, too, although I can see his being a little convenient and could see that one being argued.
Brys Beddict, sure. I never really figured out the purpose of the Hull Beddict part of the story. I know he was important as part of the back story, but his ‘right now’ story seemed pointless.
Heboric, direct conduit of a god who wanted something specific from him. Silchas Ruin was stuck in an Azath house - something specifically designed to keep high-powered beings in stasis.
Bairoth Gild and Delum Thord had their souls (willingly or unwillingly) stuck in Karsa Orlong’s sword. That’s not resurrection.
Rhulad coming back from the dead was, of course, the entire point of his character, and putting that in a list like this is kind of silly.
Draconus, Baudin, Itkovian, and Phaed I’ll admit I can’t remember off the top of my head with the number of characters running around.
So, of your list the only ones I can agree with are Hedge, Brys Beddict, and maybe Toc. Now, if someone could explain to me the point of the whole Redmask storyline from ‘Reapers Gale’ I’d love to hear it. It seemed to me to be a “This is a guy (like the Edur) who is going to cause a great revolution against the Letherii…oh wait, nevermind. He fucked up one battle and got all of his people killed. Oh, and he wasn’t an Awl.”
-Joe
Baudin was Felisin’s “bodyguard” in Deadhouse Gates – the one who became Soldier of Death.
Draconus was the Elder God who forged Dragnipur. Itkovian was Fener’s Shield Anvil in Memories of Ice. Phaed was he crazy Tiste Andii sister of Nimander Golit in Reaper’s Gale. Anyway, as you haven’t read Toll the Hounds, forget I mentioned them(and be very glad that I didn’t spoil the names of the major characters who died in Toll the Hounds).
I’ll be pretty busy for the next couple weeks, but I should be done with it a few weeks after I get it.
So, any brilliant ideas on Redmask and the Awl?
EDIT: Phead…now I know who you’re talking about. Damn, I hated her. Wanted her to stay dead.
-Joe
Now that you mention it, maybe. I won’t say any more because it relates to Toll the Hounds, but if I’m right, not only was Redmask not an Awl, he wasn’t even of the Letheri continent.
She has a bit part, really, and she’s way less annoying dead than she was alive.