Alderbaran,
Whatever your personal definition of Islam the fact is that terrorist groups like Islamic Jihad obviously consider themselves Muslim and that view is not widely disputed in the Muslim world AFAIK. I would use the term Jewish terrorist as well where applicable (eg Baruch Goldstein)
“I didn’t say it has nothing to do with it. I said: it has little to do with it”
No you said that it had “basically nothing” to do with it.
As Tamerlane noted it is incorrect to say that religion had “everything” to do with Zionism. Jewishness is an ethnicity as well as a religion and Jewish atheists are just as eligible for Israeli citizenship as the most devout Haredi. IIRC David Ben-Gurion himself was an atheist. Religion plays a lot smaller role in Israeli life compared to countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Aldebaran *
**Alessan,
Sure.
Of course I don’t know what the history books in your county teach. So if you are misled by them, then you have an excuse.
Nevertheless that doesn’t excuse your attitude overhere.
**
[quote]
I’ve read many history books - Israeli, American and European - and I haven’t written anything that contradicts with, say, Encyclopedia Brittanica. I think that you should be checking your own reading material.
And a person willing to make such vile insults towards another man’s country shouldn’t talk about “attitude”
But you seem to care about my country, don’t you? I consider an insult to my country a personal insult. It’s part of living in a democracy.
Look, you don’t like Israel all that much, and you yhink it never should have been founded. That’s fine - sometimes I think that Britain should never have moved out of Iraq, Egypt and Arabia, and that a few more centuries of colonialism would have done the region a world of good. But that’s neither here nor there.
The question is, what’s done’d done can’t be undone, so what are you going to do? Are Arabs going to keep on living in the past, or are they going to accept reality and go on with their lives? The world awaits your answer.
One last piece of advice: a little bit of knowlege is a dangerous thing. You seem to know something about the Arab world, but you know absolutely nothing about Israel, Judaism or Zionism. Listen to what Tamerlane and CyberPundit have to say on the subject.
Speaking of which:
As they say around here, tfu tfu tfu! (Israel: Home of the Yenta).
If a bomb detonated in Tel Aviv it would kill roughly a third of the national population and effectively destroy the country in every sense you can define a nation. In such a case, I doubt that what survived of the Israeli government would be thinking rationally - they’d probably nuke every major Arab city in the world just to wipe the damn smiles of their faces. Check out Judges 16:30, i’s a popular quote in these parts.
As for what I’d do… if a bomb struck Tel Aviv I’d be dead, instantly. The dead can’t give advice, and if the did, nobody would listen.
Seriously, though - I don’t know the right thing to do under those circumstanses. They’re too horrible to contemplate.
One last thing:
Hell yes. If someone hates me, yet can do nothing about it, then I’m not a victim. I’d much rather people hate me than pity me.
ISLAMIC JIHAD is no more then putting together two words that have a long history in Islam.
Jihad has different connotations, yet in its militant form it means defending the Umma against attacks coming form the outside.
Take herby notice of the condition that this “outside”, whatever or who ever it may be, has to start the hostilities.
So that has nothing to do with “Islamic terrorism” since terrorism has no history at all in Islam. As I explained more then once already on this board.
Exactly. It has basically nothing to do with it.
This section of your post makes little sense.
I’m talking about ZIONISM and how it influenced th construction of the Israeli state.
Maybe you think that I live in a sandpitch and that I write here while sitting in front of my black tent with one skinny goat and a camel in the background?
Oh well, my ancestor had some tents, some goats and some camels.
But I’m not aware of it that some of these ancient artifacts are still among the family heritage.
We do have one camel as pet for the children. But that is as far as my present connection with the desert life gets.
Aldebaran. Please stick to the OP. You would do better if you did not regularly hijack threads for your own agenda which is clumsily proselytizing Islam. By doing a search through all your previous posts in all threads in this forum, it is easy to prove that you are a one-track minded person with a tunnel vision – You cannot help it. No matter what thread you participate in, you try to turn it around or hijack it towards your life mission of proselytizing Islam.
I suggest you analyze all the responses to your past posts in this forum. If you do, you will come to the following conclusion:
1- People here are not interested in your proselytizing techniques, twisting and turning and hijacking every thread and OP into your single-minded obsession.
2- In spite of all your proselytizing efforts, you have failed miserably. You have not managed to convert a single person in this forum.
Your agenda is crystal clear to everyone in this forum. Suggestion: Give it up or go elsewhere, where there are potential buyers for your shop. If you refuse this offer, I am afraid you will end-up with the same destiny as another single-minded Doper called december.
I don’t care about the existence of Israel. I do care about the crimes commited by its governments.
I don’t need outsiders to inform me about what is my part of the world and what is in fact my own bloodline and heritage.
I also don’t need outsiders to inform me about Israel, Judaism and Zionism.
Going further on your post, you seem to be unable to make the distinction yourself since you refer back to the post of Cyber Pundit. A post that makes no sense at all seen the fact that this member couldn’t distinct me referring to Zionism and nothinig else.
As for “insulting” your country.
When you come up with some weird interpretations of history, then that isn’t exactly giving credit to the educational system of your country or it must be that you weren’t the most interested student. So the fault is yours, not mine. And when I comment on that, I comment on that. Not on your country.
I do understand your attacks on me; I wouldn’t want to live where you are right now.
Yet I think it must be possible for you to try to refrain of seeing in every Arab someone eager to kill you. Especially in cyberspace. I never heard of granates or other innocent wartoys flying through computer screens.
Salaam. A
“ISLAMIC JIHAD is no more then putting together two words that have a long history in Islam.”
I was referring to Islamic Jihad the Palestinian terrorist group. They aren’t a Muslim group according to you? Why not?
“Exactly. It has basically nothing to do with it.”
“basically nothing” is not the same as “little”
As for Zionism I am not sure what you are saying but it is the movement for a Jewish state. The fact that Jewishness is not solely religious is obviously relevant to a discussion about it as is the atheism of central figures like David Ben Gurion. As for the Israeli state neither of the two major parties is religious. The religious parties are junior members of coalition goverments. They obviously have some influence in areas like subsidies for the Haredi , closing public transport on Saturday etc. However the general ideological background in Israel is the Western democratic tradition and not the Jewish religion.
Anyway since Alessan or Tamerlane will do a much better job of explaining Zionism I will leave it to them.
I don’t know why people tend to prefer not to understand what I’m saying, but I see this happen all the time on this board.
I said:
Islamic and Jihad brought together as name for no matter what organisation is just putting two words that are well known in Islam together.
It therefore can be used and therefore it is legitimate that this name is by the West linked to Islam. Take hereby notice that I don’t say that the actions of this particular political group are in my opinion in accordance with the teachings of Islam, or that I agree even from far with their use of these two words to give their movement a name.
On the other hand: Islamic Terrorist is something that doesn’t exist in Islam, can’t exist in Islam and is a purely Western invention.
Do you understand this difference.
If not, what part don’t you understand.
And where do I say the being a Jew is solely religious?
I talk about Zionism. I don’t talk about anything else you and others tear into it.
I talk about the Jewish movement named Zionism. Which saw light at the end of the 19the century. Which was first of all seen as a response to the - at the time growing - anti Semitism.
But the idea of a Jewish homeland was present and it didn’t take long before emmigration of Jewish people towards the territory which became known as Palestine was strongly encouraged.
With all the consequences we all know about.
And up to this day Zionists are still very much concerned about the development and the support of Israel.
Now you can refute this all you want, I don’t rewrite history for you.
By the way: Israel is far from being a democracy; it has even no constitution.
“I don’t know why people tend to prefer not to understand what I’m saying, but I see this happen all the time on this board.”
Well, to put it bluntly your command of English is rather poor. And the shrillness of your arguments doesn’t help either. In any case I really can’t figure out what you are saying so I will leave this discussion.
[quote]
**
With all the consequences we all know about.
And up to this day Zionists are still very much concerned about the development and the support of Israel.
Now you can refute this all you want, I don’t rewrite history for you.
**
[quote]
Refute it? Why should I? Except for my little quibble above, I’m quite proud of it.
Constitution does not equal democracy. Most dictarorships around the world have some constitution or other. Even Iraq had one, I believe. Nor does a democracy neccesarily require a set of laws that cannot be altered by a majority of its legistlature, which is a pretty good definition of what a constitution is. The UK has gotten along just fine for centuries without one, after all. Now, the Israeli governmental system may be slightly more dynamic and mutable than other western democracies, but we kind of like it that way. It keeps things fresher, more democratic.
As for your previous post - first if you don’t care about Israel, why do you keep on talking about it?
And second, can I understand from your post that you accept the legitimate and permanant existance of Israel as a Jewish state?
For your information: My country was the first country ever to undertake steps to help finding a resolution and the first country that brought both Palestinians and Israeliq together.
Try to see a little bit less black/white.
And by the way: you obviously didn’t read what is behind my link.
As for the Great Democracy of Israel:
Try to be an Arab citizen and then try to buy property. Or try to marry a jew/jewish and vice versa.
Oh, almost forgot to ask:
Did you already visit the latest Work of Art that makes Israel as famous as Eastern Germany was before the Wall was teared down?
Do you realize that this Piece of Great Art is planted on Palestinian land, that children can’t go to school anymore and such other little side effects of the actions undertaken by the Great Democracy named Israel that by the way occupies and oppresses other people and other people’s land?
Do you realize how many UN resolutions the Great Democracy Israel simply ignores?
Question:
Can the world now invade Israel since “not complying with UN resolution” was the so called first reason (others even more fake followed of course) for the invasion of the sovereign nation Iraq by the USA and its puppy UK.
Do you know that Mr. Sharon almost couldn’t wait to participate? Do you realize what such open mingling in this ugly affair would have caused?
Do you wonder why Palestianians in general are fed up with your Great Democracy and why that is so in many other countries, not only Muslim ones?
Aldebran - way to go there buddy in regards to hi-jacking this thread way, way, WAY off topic. I really liked the way this thread started out, and I made quite a point of putting some thought into my post on Page One - and most importantly I was really looking forward to Sam’s responses and further chat about some of my premises.
But alas - once again you’ve hi-jacked a thread with one of your myopic, persecuted “woe is me” agendas.
I see that the board’s wonderful historian Tamerlane has taken you to task on some things - and as is always the case when arguing with a zealout, Tamerlane’s knowledge sunk in with you as deep as a squash ball bouncing off a concrete wall.
As it stands Aledbran - you’re currently NOT fulfilling the mission statement of this messageboard (well not in my opinion at any rate) - rather, it seems to me that you’re consistently looking for fights to further your own particular agenda - and I wouldn’t mind that so much if you weren’t so bloody determined to NOT show any magnanimity whatsoever.
Graciousness is NOT a failing my friend. It’s a sign of nobility.
I forgot to ask clarification about what my “agenda” might be.
I forgot also to ask you where I hijack a thread where a nuclear attack on Mecca became one of the major points of discussions, in which I didn’t bother to participate.
So sorry to inform you that I’m not only historian? I happen to be also Arab. Thus posts who contain weird attacks and accusations and claims on things making part of my background and which that hold no ground at all, are for me an open invitation to interfere. In double.
Or are you saying that I must stop being Arab and stom being what I am before I can participate on this message board or what exactly is the intention of your post?
Is it like: We can all say what we want about things we have no clue about and you Arab must shut up… Because we are we… And if you correct us we face too much embarassment…
Or what?
Can you be a bit clearer next time please? Thank you.
Aren’t you a European with some Arab ancestry? To most Americans, you’re a Belgian first and foremost and an Arab second. Nothing wrong with that, most of us are hyphenated too. What’s your citizenship?