Enough for what?
One of the reasons that the IRA gained support from nationalist area was because the nationist community had no confidence whatsoever in the NI police force, especially the B-Specials.
The battle of the bogside was one of the major factors in the start of the troubles. That had a lot to do with sections the Police and B-Specials being out of control from a law and order POV. It was seen from the nationalist POV that there was a law for one community and a different one for the other.
The IRA took advantage of this and became the “protectors” of the nationalist communities.
Tagos’ initial point was to do with actions of the police and other state officals led to a rise in IRA. He was too broad in his statement but from a nationalist POV it did really matter back in the day. The whole State was flawed and against them as far as they were concerned. The IRA gained huge ground because of this. That is fact. It is also history thanks be to god.
I really don’t want to get into a NI deabte about who was right and wrong as I’ve being doing this all my life and I’m bored of it quite frankly. I’m sure you even feel stronger about this that I do considering your location.
Indeed.
Maybe unrelated, but I’d like to infuse an Irish American’s point of view.
Back in the day, the IRA was funded a lot by people here in the US. I remember a time back in the seventies and eighties some of the Irish pubs would sing the anthem and pass the hat around. I was never a fan of it, but I certainly saw it. I think there was a lot of Irish survivor guilt going on over here. But I doubt the IRA would have been able to put up as much resistance without a stream of cash flowing from the states.
But these guys fucked up. We’ve since been hit by terror and the romanticism has worn off. And while we understand that the brit soldiers were in the NI, they were about to go to Afghanistan and fight the fuckers that hit us. Not a great score. If there was any soft support left after that, they went and shot a Catholic cop. I’m not sure if they heard the news, but a bunch of Irish catholic cops got killed in a little city named New York a few years back. I live in saint paul, Minnesota, and I can tell you that the local Emerald societies and fraternal organizations took it pretty personal. And I know of very few fellow fellow Irish Americans that don’t know a cop or two.
Now I understand how these assholes are trying to bring back their glory days, but I certainly hope there is restraint among the populous and they realize that there isn’t the support for it, and I hope it will be a last spasm of violence in a lasting peace.
my $.02
My husband mentioned this morning that you can’t bomb ideas. Or at least, it’s very ineffective. Read the book Tigana for an interesting perspective on this idea.
And my point about McGuinness was more to this- if asked what I thought he might be doing in 15 years, rotting away in the Maze would have jumped to mind… a power-sharing government, not so much.
Now the authorities are very worried about a car bombing coming next. With good reason, I guess- after intercepting several very crude, poorly-constructed bombs recently, the last one they found was extremely well-built and professional. Not a good sign at all…
The majority of funding came from within Ireland. Bank, Post Office raids, kidnapping and other illegal activites in the 32 counties were the backbone of the money system that kept the fight going. US money was there but it wasn’t as influencial as you might have thought. There was also guns and money suplied by Lybia.
My two pennorth…
I think that the people who are trying to reignite the Troubles are doing it more out of a wish to become "Somebodies"again then for any genuine political motives.
They miss being “Big Men” and I wouldn’t be stunned with amazement if they get some sort of twisted thrill out of murdering people and frightening the innocent.
Its so much easier to convince yourself that you’re committing atrocities for “The Cause” then it is to admit to yourself that you are a certifiable psychopath.
Also it was a nice little earner for many terrorists during the Troubles on both sides of the fence,what with the smuggling,the robberies and of course most of all the protection rackets.
All justified as being for the “Cause” and enabling ordinary honest working people who would not normally dream of aiding and abetting criminals or for that matter even covering up for them to be roped in to help the perpetrators, or stand accused of being traitors to their community and suffer the often fatal punishment that was a result of their so called “treachery”.
Things are different now,as **NurseCarmen ** said there used to be a lot of funding for Republican terrorists from Americans who were under the impression that they were brave little oppressed freedom fighters struggling against a British army of occupation rather then the truth of the matter.
This funding I seem to recall was literally millions of dollars every year.
Also there was the legend of the potato famine during the middle part of the eighteen hundreds being some sort of sinister British plot instead of being a self induced disaster caused by lazy farming practices(mono crop agriculture) and massive rural overpopulation.
Part of the legend also was that the rest of Britain stood by and watched the Irish starve without lifting a finger to help them.(No doubt laughing evilly whilst they rubbed their hands with glee).
The fact is that the rest of the union sent monetary and food aid to help the Irish,something that wasn’t ever done for English,Welsh or Scots when suffering similar hardships.
For them it was the Workhouse or starve.
I think that it is more then a coincidence that this legend gained widespread credence in Ireland and the fact that the person in charge of publishing school books for the Irish education system was a Nazi who fled justice in Europe at the end of WW2 and found sanctuary in Eire.
You’ve got to hand it to the man,when the Germans stopped fighting the British Army he managed to carry on the war by proxy by getting naive Irishmen and women to carry on attacking British soldiers years after the war was over.
I love Ireland and the Irish and have spent a great deal of time there both North and South and have drank in Republican pubs in Derry and Belfast amongst others aswell as being in Republican rallys and it never ceased to amaze me at some of the bizarre beliefs held by some members of the Nationalist population particulary in the Republic.
It was often believed that the English(Because we were always the villains of the piece)desperately wanted to hold on to N.I. at all costs even if it meant crushing the population of N.I.
Whereas we could care less if N.I. joined Eire,became an independent nation in its own right or even become a remote province of Iran for that matter,just so long as it was the wishes of the majority population of the province.
That Ireland for the British was a major topic of conversation generally each and every day.
Unfortunately the truth is that the average Brit in the street probably called Italy or the Phillipines or Peru to mind more often then they ever thought about Ireland, even at the height of the Troubles,the exceptions being when there was a terrorist atrocity on the telly or for adolescent girls,Irish Boy Bands.
I confess that being an Erinophile(If thats the right word) I too am an exception.
People IMO in N.I. have enjoyed the peace and have no wish to go backwards and its encouraging that so far no Protestant terrorists have crawled out of the woodwork to start Tit for Tatting and get the whole sick ball rolling again and I pray that they never do.
One day there may well be a united Ireland but every single Republican atrocity hardens the attitudes of the Protestant majority that much more and delays any chance of unification by decades not just years.
But maybe thats what these sickos really want,not unification but endless conflict and with that conflict their own little bit of notoriety and power over members of their own community.
Thats what it seems like.
I’m not going to address the rest of your post, one that in my opinion should not have been posted in Great Debates.
With relation to Albert Folens, your post is inaccurate for a number of reasons.
- The Famine occurred fully one hundred years before Folens set foot on Irish soil, it was already entrenched in history/myth.
- There are several other major school textbook publishers in the Republic of Ireland, were they part of his plan?
- And this is perhaps the most important one, the vast majority of members of the IRA in the North were schooled in the North which is part of the British educational system and to the best of my knowledge wherein Folens publications were not used in schools.
Your “more than a coincidence” is sub-conspiracy theory ramblings.
A general comment about the Troubles. There was intransigence and bloodymindedness on all sides but two things to my mind lent the IRA significant man power and sympathetic support abroad, internment and Bloody Sunday.
I only have an opinion on this, not a cite, but I tend to agree. I figure it’s just a way to start up some mayhem to get the English (we don’t recognize the British Empire in my house) out of Ireland. And…well…
Yes, these men were acting as terrorists. However, Republicans in general are NOT terrorists, but rather freedom fighters. Ireland is (I believe) the only occupied country in the industrialized world.
As I write this, I’m wearing a piece of jewelry (a silver Easter lilly) which my husband bought for me from Sinn Fein. The English (though he typically refers to them as protestants) burned his house down, blew up two of his cars, killed seven of his friends, held guns to his head, beat him up on the way to school, and so forth. Noteworthy is the fact that he did nothing to deserve any of this, except being an Irish Catholic. He wasn’t involved, and was a child when some of it was inflicted upon him.
These people have a legitimate beef with the English army. Re-starting violence is not the way to solve the problem. But you have to wonder how you’d react if you opened a door and found your dead brother hanging from it after being shot by an occupying army.
Hibernophile is the correct term and you don’t really sound like one to me. In fact you sound like Alan Partridge in some of your post
There are plenty of Scots and Welsh (and Northern Irish) involved in the British Army in Northern Ireland.
That’s a pretty disingenuous distinction, IMO. The majority of Republicans are not, and were not, terrorists. Never have been. There may be some means of arguing that Irish Republican paramilitaries targeting solely British troops on active duty in NI were “freedom fighters”. But what about the ones who shot “collaborators” on their own doorsteps? Or planted the bombs at Eniskillen, Omagh, Belfast, Birmingham, Guildford, Manchester, Hyde Park, Oxford Street, Harrod’s: they were/are fucking terrorists. Please don’t try to argue that they weren’t.
Cyprus. But if even Sinn Féin have agreed to power-share in the six counties, then this attitude is now far from mainstream Republicanism, and IMO is really counterproductive.
The treatment your husband and his community received at the hands of Loyalists/Unionists/British Army/RUC was truly shocking, and I am sorry for his troubles. So too though was the sectarian action of the Republicans. Calling them “English”, too, is also a sectarian - and unhelpful - way of thinking. Though perhaps understandable.
Sadly, the same treatment was meted out to the other side by “his” side too. It seems to me there’s a very strong immoral equivalence there, and your opinion is clearly heavily influenced by one side’s suffering only.
Not to mention that there are plenty of Irish from the Republic of Ireland in the British Army. Were they excluded from service in Northern Ireland?
Okay, it’s true, this is a hot issue with me and I sorely need to read a NON-biased book on the subject. But…as for the distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists, think of it this way:
The Canadians march into Michigan and plant a flag and say, “Okay, now we’re in charge.” They roll their tanks down our streets, burn our homes block, by block, and start terrorizing, killing, and torturing anyone who doesn’t take their side/religion/color/what-have-you. You don’t think those people who took up arms to do ANYTHING in their power to get them out, including trying to keep them from getting goods and services from the locals, would be justified? And how long do you think it should be before the people in Michigan just say, “Okay, I guess it’s alright if you stay and remain in control. No need to apologize”? Ten years? Thirty?
Atrocities committed by the IRA were an attempt to gain their counties back. I don’t condone violence, but I also don’t think compromise (as mentioned of Sinn Fein) is appropriate. If the States were invaded in that manner, the attitude would be “leave or die.” Terrorists acts were committed, but the majority of the violence against the invaders was exactly what would happen if they’d invaded Wisconsin.
I guess my question, and pardon my passion on the subject, is what the fuck are the English still doing in the North of Ireland?
So all the protestants should leave or die? Or just the British army should leave or die?
Oh no! They should just be able to run their tanks up and down streets, shooting Catholics and then they should be given tea and crumpets.
Uhh…yes. The invading army should either leave, or be prepared to have THEIR violence met with violent resistance. I mean, that’s why they’re called an “army” not the “Welcome Wagon.”
Of course, the local protestants should be let alone. They didn’t instigate violence.
Do you condone Native Americans/Indians using indiscriminate bombing and other murderous behaviour in order to remove the white man from North America?
The invaders invaded a long, long time ago.
It’s always seemed to me that the distinction between a terrorist and a guerilla warrior is the choice of targets. Guerillas restrict themselves to military targets, while terrorists also go against civilian targets. No doubt there were some elements who did restrict themselves to military targets, and I’ll concede that those are guerillas (whether they’re “freedom fighters” depends on their motives, a point I’m in no position to judge). But there were also some elements who did not restrict their targets to the military, and those are terrorists, regardless of their motives.
How about if they aren’t shooting Catholics? Like they aren’t shooting Catholics right now?
But that’s the point. They did. The British army was brought in to stop the violence by local protestants against catholics. And then some other unfortunate things happened, and here we are.
How did the brave heroes who killed the two horrible English invaders last week help anything? Considering that those horrible Englishmen were headed off to invade Afghanistan anyway?
That’s a big problem I’ve had with the IRA. If one agrees that they’re legitimately struggling against an occupying power then they should only ever have attacked the British Army. They always claimed they were a legitimate army but never adhered to the tenets of a real army. A 32-county Republic isn’t worth a drop of anyone’s blood wherever they may hail from.
Well, the problem with demanding civil rights and working out a political solution is that it isn’t as much fun as shooting people in the back or making bombs. Inner city drug dealers typically live with their moms and make less than minimum wage. But it’s all worth it for the feeling of being a badass.