Well there might be some Afghans who won’t be killed as a result…
Anyway, this is decidedly beside the point.
It’s 2009, not 1916.
Suppose I was in favor of Northern Ireland leaving the UK and becoming part of the Republic. What would be the best way to accomplish this goal? I can think of lots of things I might do. None of those include shooting British soldiers or Polish pizza delivery guys.
Move to Northern Ireland and start having lots of kids. Tell them to vote Sinn Féin.
Don’t worry, the British Army has had its own nightmares in Afghanistan, for about 200 years.
Incidentally a point that has been missed here, but worries me is the current economic situation. One of the main reasons that the Troubles blew up in the 1960’s was the deindustralisation of Ulster and the corresponding economic hardship that resulted. I really
hope the current economic crises dos’nt exacerbate matters.
Nations have been doing that since time immemorial, weak nations always suffer at the hands of the strong, the best solution to this; don’t be weak.
By the way what you describe is pretty much what the Irish (as part of Britian) did in a lot of the world.
Exactly. If the choices for British soldiers are leave or die, if they’re shipping out for Afghanistan there’s the potential of a two-for-one deal–they leave AND get sent to the Khyber pass.
Actually, they burned my husband’s home down (along with thousands of others) in 1969, taking over the neighborhood. He lost a car in the 70s, and one in the 80s to explosions. He lost his 7 friends to British fire in the 80s. Felt something against his head while sitting on his back deck in the 90s and turned to find an M16 pressed against his face. Well, that type of thing happened more than once. I believe his sister was beaten in the 80s as well (he fought off her british soldier attackers). Last year at least one Catholic school boy was beaten into a coma on his way to school…
Again, you’re conflating British soldiers with Protestants. The majority of violence against Catholics was not done by British soldiers, but rather by Protestant citizens of Northern Ireland.
And if you picked a protestant they could tell you stories about how they were victims of violence too, except the bad guys in their stories would be Catholics and IRA terrorists.
The rest of us are bored with it, KnitWit.
Who’s “they”? If you mean the British Army did it, then maybe you have a vague point.
If you mean Loyalists/Unionists - people whose distant ancestors came to Ireland centuries before (for example) the US even existed, then they weren’t invaders in any practical sense of the word. Thugs, bastards, extremists, murderers, yes, but not invaders.
Sectarian talk, again.
KnitWit, I’m sure you’ll take what I’m about to say as very rude, especially in the light of what your husband suffered, but I’ll say it anyway: I don’t think your participation in this thread is particularly helpful. Your opinions, while clearly valid to you and your husband, appear to me to be so far from, and so much more extreme than, and so much more one-sided than, those of the vast majority of people who actually live in Ireland at the moment, that it distorts the actual subject of the thread.
You didn’t answer my question. Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist folk have lived in the North longer than the United States has existed. There has been violence between these folk and Catholic/Republican/Nationalist citizens of the North but as jjimm has said they should not be conflated with the British Army.
There has been violence on both sides, and I, romantically, support the notion of a unified Ireland. However, I don’t support any amount of bloodletting to achieve it. I imagine this is the majority opinion south of the border.
[quote=“Lust4Life, post:47, topic:488971”]
My two pennorth… snip
Also there was the legend of the potato famine during the middle part of the eighteen hundreds being some sort of sinister British plot instead of being a self induced disaster caused by lazy farming practices(mono crop agriculture) and massive rural overpopulation.
… snip
I think that it is more then a coincidence that this legend gained widespread credence in Ireland and the fact that the person in charge of publishing school books for the Irish education system was a Nazi who fled justice in Europe at the end of WW2 and found sanctuary in Eire.
You’ve got to hand it to the man,when the Germans stopped fighting the British Army he managed to carry on the war by proxy by getting naive Irishmen and women to carry on attacking British soldiers years after the war was over.
QUOTE]
Sorry for the hijack - but who was this person?
[quote=“Bam_Boo_Gut, post:71, topic:488971”]
Albert Folens. I linked to a story about him above.
Hmm… you’re comparing two completely different situations. One entirely fictitious - the Canadians marching into Michigan - with another, the historical situation of Anglo-Irish relations over the centuries.
Don’t see how the two (extremely contrasting) examples help with an overall understanding of the situation.
Like trying to apply an episode of Star Trek to the Northern Ireland situation. Well, Picard did this in such a situation so…
It just wasn’t that dramatic I’m afraid. English involvement in Ireland goes back to about 1180 and it’s been ongoing since then.
I dunno whether you noticed in all your passion that there are other people around who also feel passionate but the opposite of you. Who made you God? To have the final decision over who’s passion should be the most important?
Yes the Protestants who burnt out innocent catholic families were total scum and the lowest of the low,thats why the Army was sent into protect the catholic population originally.
A pity that republican terrorists took it into their heads to start shooting at soldiers to invite the inevitable retaliation and alienate the Nationalist community from them
Well he’s certainly had a bad time of it but he was lucky that the Protestant terrorist who had risked being capturesd or shot by the British Army plus his gang losing a valuable weapon by wandering around with an M16 rifle,and come to mention it the risk of Republican terrorists killing him,did nothing else,not even say anything as in make threats or be abusive etc.
Not much of a consolation I know,perhaps the terrorist lost his nerve or something.
I’m surprised that your husband and his sister didn’t put in a formal complaint about what sounds like an attempted gang rape by British soldiers.
Even if handled by totally corrupt police and British Army officers they would at least have had to make a pretence of an investigation and once the world media heard about it nothing on earth could suppress the story.
There would have been universal outrage and suspicion at the very least and it would have put the British army in a very,very unpleasant position whatever the outcome.
The seven friends of his lost to British fire,were they innocent passersby who got caught in the crossfire or were they armed or shooting at civilians/soldiers etc?
I had some of my extended family killed by the security forces myself but to be fair they were on so called “active service” for PIRA.
(By the way I’m English,just to save any misunderstanding.)
I can understand though anyone who had actually undergone all these traumatic experiences(and so many of them as well!)holding extreme opinions against the British.
Personally I’m in favour of a united Ireland but to be brutally honest most English people IME couldn’t care less one way or the other what path N.I. follows in the future so if you can persuade the majority of N.Is population that its in their best interests to join the R.O.I. rather then terrorising them then I for one would be very,very surprised indeed if any British Government put any obstacles in your way.
In fact I wouldn’t be stunned with amazement if they put a few million quid towards helping to make the transition go smoothly,though of course that is only my personal opinion.
Your first point certainly has validity but my point is that Folens kept the fire burning if not actually stoked it up a few degrees.
In Scotland several hundred years ago there were the Highland clearances which WERE a deliberate policy by the landowners who turned their own people off of the land because there was more money in raising sheep then having the rents from small tenant farmers.
There are stories of people being burnt out of their homes,(including a housebound old lady)when they didn’t leave voluntarily.
There was also in England the usurpation of common land owned by the local people by landowners around the same time for much the same reasons.
But I’ve never heard people getting angry to the point of violence,let alone murder about these acts.
Probably because no one here was alive when it happened,no one here knows anyone who was alive when it happened or even knows anyone who knew anyone who knew someone when it happened.
So why all the outrage today at something that is out of history?
Your second point about there being other textbooks available.
Yes there were, but which version of history is more likely to be the one people choose to believe?
My ancestors caused by their own actions(and lack of action)a disaster that hit them very badly and caused a huge amount of death and misery to themselves but ultimately there was no one that they could realisticly blame but themselves…
OR,my ancestors were the innocent victims of a deliberate plot by evil outsiders,that in fact my ancestors were martyrs and should be the objects of pity and thus if they’re the innocent partys then it follows that the outsiders should be reviled for their evil and any people whos evil is that deep must be as evil today as they were then.
You have two versions,which book are you going to prefer to teach from?
Which book are you going to choose to believe for your own national self esteem?
Your third point about Northern terrorists being educated under the British educational system…
Did/do Catholic schools/church schools in Nationalist area strictly follow the British curriculum,follow a more broadly Irish version of events or interpret the British curriculum according to Nationalist lights?
As in for the exam you will put this answer but in reality this is the true version of events…
And just because I’m paranoid it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a conspiracy 
Thanks for letting me know the correct term,my word never did sound right to me.
Whether or not I sound like one to you or not is irrelevant in the real world,Iknow what I think and feel you dont, and you’re not actually qualified to tell me what my opinion is any more then I’m qualified to tell YOU what you’re thinking and feeling.
As to the comment about Alan Partridge,apart from mystifying me as to what you actually mean it sounds like a cheap shot and frankly I have come to have higher expectations of your debating then this.
OK,you’ve got me he happens to be a personal hero of mine and I always try my best to emulate him.
Just to reiterate I love Ireland and the Irish,always have done and always will.
Without knowing the individuals involved I don’t see how you can possibly reach that conclusion. I don’t know who carried out these acts, but I do know a lot of people who support the groups that have claimed responsibility and a lot of them are quite genuine in their beliefs. They may be hopelessly misguided but that doesn’t make them psychopaths or whatever. Furthermore I don’t think it’s helpful to characterise them as such without considering the reasons why some people within the broad nationalist/republican community are disaffected by the peace process.
If your argument is that a “real army” only attacks other armies, then I’m not sure there is any such thing as a real army in the real world. The British Army certainly wouldn’t qualify under that standard.
Eh?
Yes, the Irish invaded other parts of the world. More Irish over here in the United States than there are in Ireland.
I was referring to the fact that the Provos and other groups murdered over 700 civilians including ‘disappearing’ some of them. These weren’t all collateral damage in a larger strategy, these people were deliberately targeted and then murdered. For example Jean McConville was murdered because “she was suspected of having shown some kindness to an injured soldier but also because she was a Protestant who married a Catholic and moved to the Falls Road.” (Cite)
I have no sympathy for the British Army either but when they adopted tactics similar to the Provos when dealing with them in the 1980s the Provos cried foul.
The violence in the North stemmed from then present day injustice, history played its part but Northern Ireland had been run since its inception along unjust lines.
Unless you have a cite from one of these books, showing they explicitly blame the English for the Famine and can also show that said textbooks were widely read then you haven’t got a leg to stand on. Even if you can prove this read my comment below about the Troubles.
The famine is a complex issue and has of course become mythic over time but the crimes commited with relation to it were sins of omission. More should have been done to help them. I don’t look at it through a national lense, it makes more sense to look at it on a class basis, those who suffered were the poorest of the poor and I am sure there were even those in Ireland who felt it was a necessary correction. More should have been done by all parties in these isles to help these people. Should hospitals stop treating those with lung cancer because they caused their own illnesses?
I don’t know and the onus is on you, the person who brought the topic up to find this out otherwise your argument makes no sense. With relation to the famine, if you think it was the primary or even a significant secondary reason for the Troubles breaking out in the late 1960s then you really need to purchase yourself some history books. If you love Ireland and the Irish try finding something out about it and them.