Wow! You even think you know how much I paid for my car!
Of course, I wouldn’t dare correct you, because I’m probably wrong for some reasons. Maybe in the next post I can learn how I’m mismanaging my battery.
Maybe you got a deal. Or are thinking about net after EV tax credit. Or leased. But the i3 does start at about $42K for the base package and loaded 2017 anyway lists $53K. So if my “something like $45K” is way off then good for you I guess. Of course it’s been around for a few years, but it started base at about $42K in 2014 as well.
They make it pretty damn hard to mismanage a battery. I don’t think you could pull it off.
The i3 and the Leaf are great cars for commuting and driving about the city. The i3 looks sexier and has some snazzy touches. For many commuting and limited city driving is the functionality they care about and they either have no need for a car that can do the even 200 mile weekend or road trip or have another family vehicle that they will use for that need. The Bolt or the Tesla 3 neither of them are.
Bringing this back to Tesla - clearly the i3, priced in the same space as the Bolt and the Tesla 3, even if selling only a few hundred per month so not exactly mass production, cannot compete with those vehicles. BMW is planning to bring vehicles with over 300 miles of range to market by 2019. Will they be able to find a niche in the market? Assuming Tesla pulls off their production ramp by end of 2018 will BMW be able to compete?
I’d get a Model S before the Bolt, but the Model 3 would have to be delayed around a year before I’d start thinking about it. My current car still has some life in it.
However with every Model 3 video I see, I hate my 330i more and more. The clean interior is the new standard as far as I’m concerned. I look around and see buttons I haven’t pressed in 6 months; why would I possibly want them to clutter up my view?
On an typical journey, I press literally one button on my dashboard: clearing the stupid-ass warning message about some bullshit that I never read that shows up every time I start the car. Headlights, AC, radio, all that stuff I have configured already, so there’s no need to change it. On occasion, I might change it to the efficiency/range display, which takes like 6 button presses to get to. Of course, this information is displayed by default on the Model 3.
So I’m done with cars that look like the aftermath of an explosion in a Soviet button factory. I’m willing to wait for the Model 3 if only because everything else looks like last century in comparison.
As far as range anxiety goes, the last time I experienced it I would have been totally comfortable in an EV. I was sitting for many hours in near-motionless traffic, burning through my tank at idle–a situation which is irrelevant to an EV, which can drive at 1 mph for days if need be.
Very interesting dichotomy in two reviews of the Model 3.
The first says that the 3 has ruined every other car for its owner:
https://insideevs.com/new-tesla-model-3-owner-gushes/
The second is from an investment analyst who drove the 3 at an event that sounds like it was focused on Wall Street. This analyst warned of fairly substantial initial quality issues:
I don’t think those are too contradictory; they just focus on different aspects.
In terms of how it drives, I haven’t heard a single negative thing about the 3. It’s exactly what it’s supposed to be; a small sport sedan with good (but not supercar level) handling and performance. And of course all the advantages of EVs like instant throttle response.
But it does seem to have the fit and finish of a Tesla–that is, not so great. Uneven panel gaps have been a sore point for years, as has paint quality. Maybe some of this is a function of the low automation on Model S/X and the early 3s, and it will get better over time. But I suspect perfectionists will be disappointed.
where does the perfectionist (or anybody else) go for repairs?
For uneven door seams? Nowhere. I mean, if they’re bad enough to be a functional issue it becomes a warranty thing, but otherwise there’s not much to be done. Well, you can get it painted black :).
For minor paint issues, misaligned door seals, wind noises, or whatever, I’m sure plenty of places would fix that for you.
There are 3 Tesla locations in my state. the closest one to me is over an hour away. It’s a store front. There doesn’t appear to be any place for repair work.
Are you suggesting customers take their new car to outside repair shops for service?
Well, there’s a Tesla service center literally a block away from my work, so if I run into any issues I won’t even need a loaner. As compared to my BMW where the closest center is in a different city.
As for outside repairs, I’m only talking minor cosmetic issues which wouldn’t be covered under warranty (you were replying to the “perfectionist” comment, after all). Minor paint orangepeeling and the like aren’t a functional issue and wouldn’t bother me, but in any case that stuff can be fixed.
Tesla is in the process of creating a fleet of mobile repair vans which will be able to do minor jobs at your work or home. Not sure when they’ll achieve full US coverage but I hope it’ll scale with Model 3 sales.
are you even listening to what you’re saying? “They’re in the process of creating mobile vans for minor repairs”. What about major repairs? This isn’t some small issue, it’s a big deal if there aren’t any places to take the car for repair.
It’s great that you’re willing to overlook a bad paint job but fanboy loyalty isn’t going to travel far for the vast majority of consumers.
That’s a good point. Reading through the comments in those links, there’s quite a few people who are strident in their view of, “I don’t care how many rattles or how much wind noise there is! It’s a Tesla, squeeeeee! It can be missing two windows, but as long as there’s a DEDICATED SUPERCHARGER NETWORK it’s the best car ever!”
I don’t mean to belittle anyone who is very enthusiastic about getting the Model 3 they have been waiting on for years. I will probably go car shopping in another few years, and there’s no question I’m going to test drive a Model 3 then. I’m not totally sold on it just because I’ve looked at pictures online, but if I get in it and the build quality is poor, I’m going to look for a competitor that offers better value. And in a few years, when I expect to look for a new car, we’re looking at having EV offerings in the 200 mile range from Chevy, VW, BMW, Hyundai, Nissan, Mercedes, and Audi. Frankly, with the exception of VW and Audi, I think those carmarkers are far better at keeping their schedule promises than Tesla.
But mostly I’m just miffed that Tesla, which has so much going for it, seems to know how to design a great car, but not know how to build one.
Overall I agree. From my POV as a non-EV owner who’d like one when they’re a little better and as a Tesla non-fanboy. A couple thoughts:
You jumped directly from “build quality” to “value”. Those are very different metrics. It’s fine to say “I deduct points for crappy build quality.” IMO most folks conceive of “value” as price vs. other objective dollar-quantifiable measures.
In fairness, jz78817 who does know rather a lot about building cars at scale, has said all along that building modern cars to modern standards is not easy, nor cheap, nor readily scalable down as far as Tesla needs to be today.
The $64B question is whether they can scale up quality and quantity and scale down marginal production cost at a rate that works. Their window of first-mover opportunity is fast closing: the rest of the industry who already knows those aspects cold is about to take that free lunch off the table.
Will the plucky hero snatch sweet victory from the jaws of defeat, or will they be dragon snacks? Stay tuned.
Sure, but it’s an issue that any startup car company would encounter. Before there are many cars, there aren’t many places that can repair them.
That’s fine. If you don’t live near a place that can repair Teslas, maybe don’t buy a Tesla? Or accept that it’s going to require shipping your car somewhere if it needs a major repair. There are lots and lots of people who do live near enough that it’s not an issue, and people who can deal with renting a car for the few extra days it will take over another car.
The vast majority don’t live so far away from service centers, even at their current density. Half the US population lives in the top 50 cities, and Tesla has service centers in most of these. So they may not quite reach half but they’re pretty close, and they’re planning on many more.
And like iamthewalrus(:3= said, if you live too far from one then don’t buy a Tesla. Clearly there is plenty of pent-up demand in areas that Tesla does cover, or from people willing to go out of their way. If you live in buttfuck nowhere, buy something else. If Tesla hasn’t built out their service network two years from now when they’ve eaten through the early demand, we might have a problem.
I don’t have infinite patience for build defects, but the advantages of an EV (and in particular a Tesla) can make up for a lot. All gas cars have the gigantic noise defect of their engine. A bit more wind noise is acceptable if the total noise level goes down.
Like LSLGuy said, fit-and-finish stuff deducts “points” but isn’t necessarily a make-or-break. Charge at home is +50 points. EV feel is +40. Minimalist interior is +30. Slower road trips are -10. Minor rattles -5. From my perspective, quite a lot of stuff would have to suck to make up for the known advantages.
Versus ICE cars, I presume you mean. Other EVs would presumably stand up better in the comparison, and make Tesla’s manufacturing failings more important.
Right; I was using a typical ICE as a baseline. In principle, it doesn’t matter, really–the relative standing would be the same no matter what the baseline.
Against, say, a Bolt, the Model 3 has better range (in the extended model), fast charging (340 mph), the new interior, better looks (IMO), better body style (again, IMO; I prefer sedans), and so on. But it loses (probably) on fit and finish, ease of service, and a few other things.
That said, I think it’s useful–for those thinking of switching from ICE to EV–to go through the mental exercise of setting the EV as the baseline and picking out the negatives of switching to an ICE. Imagine that you’ve driven EVs your whole life and someone is trying to convince you of the advantages of an ICE. Noisy engine, -10 points. Dingy and gross gas stations, -10. Super-fast fueling, +20. Don’t start every day at full capacity, -20. Weird and clunky acceleration curve, -10. Etc.
Bolding mine.
I totally want one of these. It can still charge while going 340mph! That’ll get me to work in … hmm … 7 minutes. Sold!! 
Seriously … I think you’ve hit on a useful formulation. Bad because different is a dumb way to evaluate anything. Its far smarter to treat each as a bucket of plusses and minuses then tot them all up.
I’ve said before my obstacle is entirely that absent forcing legislation which ain’t gonna happen here in FL, there’s no way my condo will ever retrofit power for chargers to our parking spaces. So I either move to new construction or a single family house or drive an ICE UFN.
I’ve always liked expressing common things in unusual but equivalent units. It leads to useful insights–it really is the case, assuming you have a 40 mile commute, that it only needs 7 minutes of Supercharger time to charge for that trip.
It vaguely annoys me that EV efficiency isn’t measured in Newtons. A Model S uses about 300 W-h/mile. That’s equivalent to 671 N, or 68 kg in Earth gravity. Which is of course the combined force on the vehicle (aero, friction, resistivity, etc.) when traveling at the rated speed.
Also, a 30 mpg car should be rated as 0.078 mm[sup]2[/sup]. That’s the area of a thread of gas the car needs to “eat” as it travels down the road.
This is double-funny. I actually thought DSeid had muffed his units & I was making a (friendly) joke at his expense.
Turns out the joke is on me and he meant that it charges at a rate of 340 miles (of incremental range) per hour (of charging). That totally went over my head. Whoosh!!
OTOH, on that basis my ICE can charge at a rate of about 300 miles per 5 minutes or 3,600mph. Take that Mr. Musk! Sounds to me more like you sell a Slow-poke Charger. Hur hur!!
Another slightly funny anecdote along these lines is that at the end of many workdays I fly right over my house enroute to my base airport. I’ve timed it and from overhead my house to touchdown is right at 10 minutes for the typical traffic flow and wind conditions. From touchdown to starting the car is about 40 minutes and from starting the car to parking at home is 50 minutes of mostly freeway driving if no traffic. So the trip takes 10 minutes one way and 90 the other. If I could get a 340 real mph car (ICE or EV) maybe I could drive *to *home quicker than I now fly away *from *home.
Agree about the rest. I really enjoyed the what-if.xkcd on the cross-section of gasoline mileage. Which I can’t find just now. Maybe it was only in his book.
Strictly, 340 miles (of incremental range) per hour (of charging) isn’t miles/hour. It’s got some other units munged in there but I’m too lazy to work them out just before bed time.