Actually it provided a very significant cash flow. Otherwise they wouldn’t still be around. Of course, they continued spending every dime they had on the Model X, the Supercharger network, additional showrooms, etc. But on a per-car basis, the Model S was (and is) very profitable.
But you still haven’t answered the question. GM has the Bolt now. Why wasn’t it possible 5 years ago? The technology hasn’t advanced that far. You claim the tech is a big fat nothing, anyway.
A side question is why they didn’t make a Model S competitor either. The nicer Cadillac sedans are in the same price range. GM, with their immense manufacturing experience and existing dealer network, should have been able to produce the same car for a much lower cost (and defect rate). But even today they only have slow, lame hybrids for $75k. You can’t claim that GM wouldn’t bother with Tesla’s volume, either, since each of Tesla’s models outsold all of Cadillac’s models with the exception of the XT5 (in 2017, mind you, but the numbers are only meant to give a sense of proportion).
Yawn. A few months of production. The Model 3 platform will be around for years; maybe a decade. And still with no direct competitors in sight.
PS: The Volt sells pretty well these days. Not quite Model S levels, but close.
They thought they did, in the Cadillac ELR, which was based on the Volt (the one with a gas generator). It only competed on price, in that both the S and ELR could be had for $75,000. I think the ELR sold less than 3000 total, ever. It can be argued that the ELR wasn’t really an S competitor, because it was a two door coupe instead of a four door sedan, but it is a fact that GM tried to build an upmarket electric-ish car and completely failed in the market.
The ELR seemed to be in an even more awkward position than the Volt. It had the purely utilitarian aspect of a battery large enough to cover a commute and not much more. Not good enough for people interested in Tesla, who want pure long-range EVs.
The ELR was a dog, too–0-60 in 7.8 s (6.4 s in 2016), top speed of 106 mph. Sure, fine for a commuter car. But those are ridiculous figures for a luxury sport sedan that costs $75k.
They had the motors, they had the li-ion tech, they had the price tag to pay for it. It should have been possible to directly compete with the S, but didn’t. So why not?
It just goes to the point, that if this were easy, they’d all be doing it. I don’t think anybody took full electric seriously until the S was a hit. There were limited production California only cars, and a few experiments, like the EV1, but nothing like what Tesla was doing.
Oh yeah, and when asked about charging stations and such, GM said they build cars, and infrastructure is somebody else’s problem. Tesla understood they needed to build an ecosystem to support the cars they wanted to sell, because it didn’t exist. Of course, part of Tesla’s goal is to move transportation away from fossil fuels. The goal of existing car companies is to write loans and leases for cars they happen to build.
Indeed. I recently read something similar from the head of VW. Effectively, that they’re only moving into EVs now that the infrastructure is starting to be in place.
I consider it cowardice that such a large and wealthy organization did not take it upon themselves to build out the infrastructure. Of course, we’d expect no less from the likes of VW.
They also mentioned that they have to re-earn the public’s trust after dieselgate and that they have some interesting EVs coming in the 2020 timeframe. Too little, too late doesn’t begin to cover that.
A GM car that started off awful, got better, and then somewhat improved.
On the other hand, has ANYTHING changed with the Model S in five years, other than software? I’m not sure if Tesla is unable to come up with any ideas on how to improve its design, which either means they think it is a perfect car, or they are afraid of tinkering with production lines that aren’t exactly efficient in the first place.
Rear passenger raised knee height on the Model 3 somewhat of an issue vs the other two.
Model 3 seems to be a little more difficult to one-pedal-drive, likely a consequence of it being RWD - the Model 3 appear to make up for it in terms of braking consistency/linearity, where the Bolt was a little bit of a mess in that area.
Model 3 suspension is a little stiff, but is compared to a Porsche Cayman (albeit loaded with luggage) in terms of handling.
Autopilot on the Tesla is (currently) worse than the Nissan, although is described as a preproduction work-in-progress.
I don’t think the overall chassis changed much, and at this point the S is probably in sore need of a complete refresh, but probably the most noticeable other changes:
Supercharging hardware comes standard now
Addition of dual motor configurations. In the beginning S’s were RWD only, you can’t even buy a new RWD model S now.
changed battery sizes (largest capacity went from 85 kWh to 100 kWh)
power/acceleration, even for the base model, has improved quite a bit (the initial model s 60 kWh did 0-60 in 5.5s, the base model s now is a full second quicker)
No autopilot hardware on the first Model S’s.
They got rid of the fake-grill-looking nosecone a year or two back.
Here’s a link that attempt to document the list of changes:
A trip meter was added, not an odometer, which has always been available. Tesla has been saying all along that early vehicles were only being delivered to employees and insiders, because they were in essentially a beta testing phase.
I bet in the next software drop, the large flat panel display will include something like informing the driver if his turn signals are on! My mind is being blown as I type this.
I get it now, sorry I’ve been so stupid. This isn’t an anticipation thread for the Model 3, this is a partisan political debate, where some people think that Tesla is wrong no matter what they do. Anything Tesla does right is easy, obvious, and the only reason others aren’t doing it is because it’s not really worthwhile. Any fault in Tesla actually shows deep flaws in their thinking and supporters, and regardless of how minor it is, just shows the completely untenable position Tesla is in.
Can we get this moved to GD or Elections, and start a thread to discuss the Model 3?
Hey, you forgot to mention that anyone that remotely supports Tesla is just a deluded, brainwashed imbecile in the Cult of Elon.
In other news, Motor Trend released a Model 3/Bolt/Leaf shootout. Model 3 “wins”, with the acknowledgement that comparing a $60k car (as tested) against $37k/43k is a tad unfair. Nothing too shocking in the review. I don’t think many reservation holders will be changing their mind based on that. I’ll enjoy seeing them revisit things when the $35k base version is released.
Oh, come on now. There are a few folks here who are in this camp; most of the people involved in the argument are simply anti-bullshit. And for as an exciting and revolutionary company as Tesla is, there’s an awful lot of bullshit that goes along with it. It isn’t unfair to point this out. It is unfair to propose taking one’s ball and going home because the bullshit was pointed out.
If folks were in this forum saying that the seats of the Bolt are the best that have ever been made, people should rightly be jumping all over them to point out that very few people think it is true. And when I poke fun at Tesla for perfecting FM radio after delivering 712 cars through November 30th, I think most people would laugh about it. I’m not sure why anyone would be unhappy about wondering why Tesla had to produce so many cars before drivers could listen to the radio, or see how much air is in their tires.
I think there’s plenty of Tesla BS out there generated from excitable “fans”, or even Tesla itself (I cringe when I see stuff like Tesla’s response to this: Tesla says France fire caused by badly tightened connection) , but I don’t think anyone was making the argument that the trip odometer, TPM value display, or the FM radio were somehow fantastic Tesla-only genius features. For good or bad (probably the latter), the car was publicly beta-tested with employees and insiders that knew what they were getting into, with software for the UI and some other features still in development. Can we laugh about it now? Sure. Will it matter in 6 months for anyone that hasn’t been obsessively following this (from either camp)? Probably not.
