I wasn’t criticizing. Tesla clearly wasn’t ready to put the car on the road. This car is more dependent on computers than your average car. You can’t even open the glove compartment without using the computer. Designing it so it could be fixed on the fly was a profoundly smart decision.
The car wasn’t ready to be put on the road because the ABS performed suboptimally under repeated heavy breaking? Seriously?
I think it is totally reasonable to expect that vehicle makers subject their products to a rigorous testing program, and that despite all best efforts, problems can sometimes still be found afterwards. Occasionally, those problems are subject to disgraceful cover-ups, and that’s truly inexcusable.
What Tesla has done with the Model 3 is, to the best of my knowledge, simply gloss over a lot of stuff that we can reasonably expect be done during the pre-production phase. I think it’s fair to say that some of the problems being discovered now should be been discovered in an actual rigorous testing program prior to production, even if other problems may reasonably be discovered later.
But, as others have pointed out, the early Model 3 consumers are generally those who don’t really care about being guinea pigs for a venture they truly believe in.
the cars were leaving the factory without the radio, bluetooth or USB working properly and it took a year to get it to that state. Are you seriously going to suggest this car or the factory was ready for production a year ago?
The ability to fix it quickly after it leaves the factory is a big plus given the circumstances.
That’s fair, but I’ll add that we are entering a new era of automobile technology, one driven largely by software and ubiquitous internet connections. It’s a process that every standalone piece of software has gone through already–from operating systems to desktop applications to games. It used to be that the software was shipped once and that’s it, and today it’s basically expected that every reasonable piece of software will have a day-0 patch and several ongoing patches–often to fix very serious issues. This has not been a universal good, but overall it’s better than it was.
Tesla’s products clearly follow the same mindset. Who cares if the FM radio is broken at launch? Other makers can’t get away with that because they would ultimately have to issue a formal recall. Tesla just patches on the fly. A non-working radio just isn’t that big a deal if you know you can fix it in short order. Owners can stream their music in the meantime. They were probably doing that anyway.
So I think ultimately we have to accept some blurring of the lines between pre-production and production vehicles, just as we’ve accepted some blurring between beta software and shipping software. When you can patch at any time, the ship date just becomes an arbitrary point on the spectrum where you deem it good enough, as opposed to “perfect” (of course, nothing ever is). Tesla’s on the bleeding edge but everyone’s going to move in that direction eventually.
Real hardware is a slightly different story, but if your software stack is robust enough it can make the rest relatively easy. Got a defective headlamp unit, or A/C controller, or whatever? No matter–just add support for both modules, and talk to whichever one is on the CAN bus. If the old one is recalled or needs to be replaced with the new one due to a defect, just swap it in. Even if the car is old, it’s still running the latest software stack and will support the new module.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
nobody is going to issue a “recall” for a non-working FM radio. Recalls are nearly always limited to regulatory compliance failures.
you are trying to extrapolate the mindset of a Tesla fan to the entire market of car buyers. Do not do that. Someone coming from a Honda Accord is not going to put up with a non-working radio in a new car. they are going to keep bringing it in saying “fix it” until they eventually file for a lemon law buy back.
and what happens when you have a failure in a hard part (e.g. failing ball joints) which you would have caught in validation testing? You can’t send out a patch for that. you’re doing the usual arrogant geek thing of believing only things which interest you are of any importance. plenty of safety recalls in history have been due to failures of hard parts. Premature rusting, steering linkage failures, inadequate seat belt anchoring, disintegrating airbag inflators, and so on. I know those are just “boring, archaic pieces of metal” to someone who can’t see past software, but those are the things that cause very expensive recalls because you actually have to go out, get the cars, and spend time (on your dime) replacing parts (also on your dime.)
Not to mention that there are plenty of rabid Tesla fans who gleefully criticize the perceived shortcomings of other EV manufacturers. How many times have we heard “Chevy suxx no Superchargers!” Well, the CCS infrastructure is larger and growing, and will clearly surpass the Supercharger network in almost every respect in the coming years… if you wait.
But buying a car with a problem with the braking software? “It’s okay, I can wait, Elon will fix it on Twitter.”
Actually the blue tooth and USB didn’t work either so they couldn’t stream their music. But Musk didn’t sell to people like you when the car was first produced. It went to employees who were motivated to ignore the problems.
It’s a good strategy in the early stages of the Model 3.
I think the good Dr has a point regarding OTA fixes. I have two items in my life right now that are making me crazy due to the manufacturers unwillingness to do the right thing and carry out software updates; the Sony head unit in my car and SWMBO’s iHome alarm clock. They both depend on a smartphone to easily access the features and both haven’t had updates since they came out, making them increasingly frustrating to use. In the case of the car radio, I have to use the remote if I don’t use the phone and the clock requires a degree in hyperspatial engineering if you don’t use the crappy app.
The relevance here is that Ford did exactly the same thing with my wife’s previous Edge, in that there were still issues Ford could have fixed , but didn’t. Of course most of the fixes were resolved with her new one but it’s pretty shitty that manufacturers use that ploy to try and induce us to by new and shiny when the still serviceable article has a few years left in it with only a modest input. Tesla seems to be addressing that and the sooner it forces the rest of the car industry to get in line, the better for the consumer overall, IMHO.
jz, you’re making it sound like Tesla just pumped out a bunch of cars and did no testing at all, which wasn’t the case. Of course, they’re going to be subject to the same rules as any other manufacturer for crash testing and the “boring stuff”. To be fair, it’s not like they are using some kind of novel suspension set-up made of unobtanium so the engineering is pretty mature. The difference is in the control of all those bits, a lot of which can be tweaked without having to go to the “stealer” to get sorted out. To your last point, Subaru sure as shit didn’t reimburse me for the 12 hours of driving I had to do to get the Takada airbag recall done, so while they had to eat the time to do the work they sure didn’t come and get it.
And yet, Ford did just that. They promised and advertised Android Auto on their cars, but it didn’t ship with Android Auto. The update providing it came out at some point in the future. Is this what Swampspruce was talking about with his wife’s Edge? It would have arrived a year or later after sale on some models.
I rented a 2016 (I think) Ford Expedition. The web page about the car said Android Auto, but it was not available in the car. The update did not come out until several months after I rented it, even though initial promises said it would have been out by then. I never once used FM radio on that trip. I would have used Android Auto the entire time. Feel free to explain how only geeks will use Android Auto, and the typical car buyer won’t care. But that’s just wrong. FM radio is dying and music streaming is leading the industry’s growth.
In summary, other automakers (well, one I know of) are doing the same software update thing. Because Tesla is Tesla, it makes headlines when they release a software update, and unless it really is a safety recall, updates for other cars are only discussed on model specific forums.
I’m starting to see Model 3s in the wild. I saw two last week, and neither one belonged to Elon Musk’s brother. I think it’s a good looking car.
My 5 year old Tesla Model S is still getting software updates and new features. Latest one was all new nav system & maps. How many 5 year old cars besides Tesla does anyone know of that are updated for free by the manufacturer? My parents were quoted $1,000 just for updated maps (much less a new nav system) in their Cadillac CTS.
I like the updates, and I don’t like the updates. Changing something that I’m familiar with through update has the potential to be awesome, and the potential to be upsetting. I delay updates on my phone and computer because I don’t like learning how to do the same stuff I’m familiar with differently.
So far, I’m happy with the Tesla updates though.
Picked up mine last week!
I probably spent 10x longer inspecting the car for panel gaps, paint defects, and fit and finish than any car I’ve purchased before, but I didn’t really notice anything that bothered me. Was a little concerned going in because I’ve seen some issues with white paint mismatching on the bumper, but it looked great to me.
The service center I went to didn’t have the typical “darkened showroom” experience- just a side bay big enough for 2 cars at a time, but that’s fine for me, since I’d rather have the extra light from outside.
Things I don’t like:
[ul]
[li]Rear visibility is poor due to the trunk height. I think the prototype didn’t have good trunk access, so this is probably a casualty of addressing that. I’ll just have to get used to using the side mirrors or rear camera more, but it’s definitely what I like least about the car. [/li]
[li]Phone-as-key concept needs to be refined. Sometimes it works great, where I just walk up to the car and go, but at least once a day I walk up and…nothing. Then I have to spend a few seconds fishing out my phone and waking the app before I can get in. Not a huge inconvenience, but its been a little annoying. I haven’t had to resort to using the card yet, and it may be an issue with my phone or a setting, but it would have been nice to have a regular fob in addition to the card & app, at least until the app works seamlessly 99% of the time. [/li]
[li]Visual turn by turn navigations are in a poor place, off in the right corner of the screen, where its difficult for me to feel comfortable taking my eyes off the road to read for more than a split second, and the font size is nowhere near big enough to be able to read anything useful there in that amount of time. For reasons that seem inexplicable to me, they have the next 4-5 turns listed, but I can’t read any of them safely while driving. I think it’d be a much better design if they just bumped up the font/icon size by a factor of 2, and just given me the next two turns instead, or relocated it more towards the middle/left of the screen.[/li][/ul]
What I really like:
[ul]
[li]Drivetrain is super smooth and quiet, lots of torque available instantly. [/li][li]After a brief period of time getting used to it, I really like having regen braking tied to the accelerator pedal. Coming from an ICE, it almost feels like the EV is anticipating my thoughts, since there’s that ~1/3 of a second window where your foot would normally be shifting over from gas to brake and an ICE would be coasting. In an EV, its already slowed down - I feel more in control of the car since there’s no “lag” in braking. I rarely have to touch the brake pedal above 5mph.[/li][li] Other than the occasional key issue, the phone app works great- can remotely turn on the A/C a few minutes before I leave the office (great for florida), can unlock or even start the car from across the country (if anyone needs to borrow it), and can see the GPS map location at any time.[/li][li]Car steers and handles well, although coming from a 9-year-old honda, I imagine I have different standards. [/li][li]No issues with wind noise at highway speeds, seems much quieter than my old car. [/li][li]Stereo is really good, especially without engine noise to drown it out. [/li][li]Overhead glass is really nice from a cabin open-ness perspective. [/li][li]Front visibility is fantastic, due to the sloped hood and lack of cluster behind the steering wheel.[/li][/ul]
Congrats! I’m glad to hear you’re happy overall. I’m still debating pulling the trigger; especially as I live in a hard core winter area and prefer an AWD option if I can get one. I’ll have to have another look on the Tesla site and figure out if I can justify $55k CAD for a vehicle. I don’t get any Federal or Provincial rebates which blows goats, but at least I don’t pay sales tax which softens the hit a little…
Sorry, $65K.
Woo-hoo! Congrats!
I agree with your complaints for the most part. The rear visibility seems to be a common problem with new cars; dunno if it’s a safety thing or just a part of modern styling. I’ve gotten used to using the rear camera everywhere.
I seem to have better luck than you with my phone key, but still it’s more like 95% than 99%. It does seem like OTA updates screw it up slightly, forcing me to restart Bluetooth or the whole phone. Mostly it works ok, though. And it worked ok when I demoed the car yesterday to a bunch of friends and family, which is really the important part :).
Text navigation instructions could definitely be improved. I tend to rely more on the map and audio instructions, but yeah, some of your suggestions would be good.
I’ll mention again to try out FLAC audio over USB. It really is fantastic. Although I love many parts of the car, probably the biggest motivator for me to go on a drive is the stereo. I’m not an audiophile, but I have a decent home theater setup, some wired Sennheiser headphones, and some noise-cancelling Bose headphones. The Tesla beats all of them, IMHO.
You’re trying to extrapolate from the limitations and historical behavior of non-Tesla vehicles to Tesla vehicles. Don’t do that.
Why wouldn’t Honda owners accept a broken radio? Because they have no confidence that Honda would ever fix it. As you say, it’s not going to get recalled. Honda (or whoever) is only going to do something under the threat of a lawsuit. And that is, in part, because the traditional approach is so much more expensive than the OTA approach. It furthermore goes against the way things have always been done.
Tesla buyers have confidence that these kinds of things will get fixed. And in fact this confidence has not been misplaced. Tesla did fix the radio thing, and many other aspects.
I never said that every single piece of hardware can be fixed in software, nor that all forms of validation can be skipped. I only said that we will see some blurring of the lines between pre-production and production.
That said, it’s clear that people underestimate the amount of control that software has. Lots of people were genuinely surprised that it’s even possible for Tesla to “patch the brakes”, over the air or not. But the amount of actual hardware for ABS is minuscule; a few wheel angle sensors and some solenoid valves. Aside from some sensor data shared with the rest of the car, everything else is entirely software.
Software can even improve the reliability of hardware components. Just as a random example, the immediate torque from an electric motor has the potential to damage the geartrain. But mild software tweaks can smooth out the application of the torque to non-damaging levels. And of course battery management is entirely software.
The low-level hardware components aren’t boring, but just about everyone is pretty good at them now. And when they aren’t, as often as not it’s from a supplier like Takata that affects just about everyone. So carmakers will compete on the basis of their software and their ability to improvement over time.
Slacker radio over the built-in LTE connection worked fine from the get-go.
ah. thanks for explaining to me that if a defect doesn’t get recalled, it never gets fixed.
that runs counter to everything I’ve personally been involved with over the last 20 years, but you’ve successfully convinced me I’ve never done any of the things I did.
Whatever, man. I’m not going to play semantic games with you. Instead, I’ll continue to enjoy a product which–just a couple of months after I bought it–has already been improved, and in which I have high confidence of continued support years down the line.
And anyway, it’s not like the other manufacturers don’t see the writing on the wall. OTA updates are done to a limited extent for the entertainment systems already, and as SamuelA says, they’re working on it for the more deeply embedded systems as well. Tesla just happens to have gotten there first, and has done so without any major security or functional issues (bricking, etc.). Everybody has the same destination here, and it’s where Tesla is already.