I guess the practicality of the safety of a taser versus other methods. Of course no method is 100% safe. People who have to be physically restrained have things broken or otherwise damaged (or sometimes die). People who get tazed occasionally have heath problems (or sometimes die). I guess I can assume that since the cop used it as his first method of control that they are being taught to use them as such. I’m not calling him taser-happy by any means, or defending the woman. I’m just wondering if a) the assumption that you should use the taser as a first line of physical restraint/defense is correct and b) when that became SOP.
I didn’t even start this line of questioning to say that the cop was wrong (although on rereading my first post, it was a bit bitchy toward the cop). I just started it as a line of questioning. I don’t keep up with law enforcement, and even if I did, I’ve seen plenty of other videos (naked wizard, for example) where the cops try several methods (including dropping a knee onto that guy’s chest-- seems like starting with the taser would have been better in that case) before the taser. Since these discrepancies have been presented to me, I’m asking a simple question about SOP.
I know it’s hard to read emotions and tone behind posts on a board by people you don’t know, and I’m not faulting anyone for that. But I honestly didn’t bring any of this up to try to have a between the lines message of “that cop was unqualified and wrong.”
TASER International says “no”, but there are anecdotal cases arguing “yes.” Given the number of Tasers in use in law enforcement and the frequency of Taser deployment however, it’s questionable whether anecdotal evidence is persuasive.
I know this came up before my next post, but again, I’m not assuming that being thrown to the ground is necessarily better. And if “officer judgment” is the best answer we have for SOP, then so be it. Again, I didn’t bring any of this up to fault the officer. But I think we can make some kind of judgment call about amount of force it would have taken to overpower her from the push that the officer gave her. Nothing definite, to be sure, but I was just hoping for something more concrete about how standard taser use is. Just a question, in all straightforwardness.
He emphatically did not use it as his first method of control. His first method of control is his physical presence and authority. His second is verbal commands. His third is to physically redirect her. He moved step-by-step up the force continuum, just as (I assume) he was trained to do. So, no, it’s not SOP to start with the Taser, nor did the officer start with the Taser in this case.
And personally I’m not offended by your question. There is for most (all, AFAIK) law enforcement departments a “use of force continuum” that officers are trained to employ. It starts with standing there in your uniform looking imposing and goes up to firing your weapon at a suspect. Somewhere in the middle is things like takedowns, OC or pepper spray, and Tasers – and there is not perfect agreement even between departments as to where Tasers fall amongst those methods.
So yes, he could have done something else. The fact that he did not was an exercise of his judgment as an officer, and given how close Tasering is to his other options on the force continuum, I’m inclined to defer to that judgment. It’s not like he employed a use of force that was clearly disproportional to the situation, like baton strikes or using his gun.
ETA in light of your last: Just to clarify: Unrestrained “officer judgment” is not SOP, either. There are policies, procedures, and trainings in place that deal with escalating confrontations, usually at least partially boiled down to a “use of force continuum” referenced above. The officer is expected to exercise his judgment within the scope of the training he has received regarding permitted force responses to a given situation.
So essentially you all think it’s ok to rough up, scream at, and shock an old lady for talking back to a poor little defensless cop who is just doing his job? :rolleyes: He should’ve dropped a copy of the ticket into her cab and walked away. He had her on camera. I didn’t realize tasers were intended to force politeness.
I’ve watched this video a few times now and I’m 100% on the officer’s side in this. That bitchy old lady deserved it. Age does not grant you the right to be rude and belligerent to an officer.
He was trying to keep her out of traffic, he even said at one point for her to stay out of traffic, she kept trying to walk around him into the active lane to get into her truck. How much trouble would he be in if he just let granny walk into oncoming traffic?
Maybe he didn’t need to taser her and maybe he did but granny was in the wrong from the very beginning by refusing to sign her ticket and then giving the officer a hard time. Being 72 years old isn’t an excuse, you still get a ticket.
Frankly, I’m getting tired of seeing all these old ladies getting nasty with the cops, and then crying foul when they provoke a reaction from the cop. They should be getting mandatory psych evaluations, this could be a sign of dementia. If they are determined to not be suffering from dementia then they can be declared cranky old bitches and get the book thrown at them.
If I was replying to you I would’ve quoted you, like I’m doing now. I was replying to the general attitude of the thread. And please, shoving an old lady playground bully style is “physically redirecting” her? No. It’s a bully getting his jollies.
And maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think she’s all that old at 72. Looks like she’s getting around just fine and certainly is spry enough to dare the officer to taser her. To me, you hear “Cop Tasers Great-Grandmother!” and you think of some doddering 90 year old with a walker and white hair in a bun.
My grandma slipped in her driveway last year and broke her femur clean through. After recovering in the hospital for a few weeks she thought she could get up and go to the bathroom without bothering a nurse to come help her, and she fell again and broke her back. She’s 2 years younger than this woman. The shoving and the fall from losing all control of her own body when the cop shocked her could’ve very easily and very literally killed this woman. All because Officer Authoratahhh couldn’t handle being sassed.
And by the way, my grandma is very “spry” and doesn’t have any special weak or brittle bone condition.
Gosh, it must have been your use of “you all” that led me to believe you were at least in part addressing me. And, yes, shoving someone is definitionally “physically redirecting” them; that’s basically what the term means: to redirect someone, using physical means. Not sure what about that makes it “playground bully style,” but then I don’t feel the need to assume some officer motivation (“getting his jollies”) that is not substantiated by anything I’ve seen. But obviously I can’t stop you from reading in whatever nefarious jack-booted motivation you want.
Oh please. Because your grandma broke her leg, this woman could easily have been killed? You’re really reaching. It could just have easily been you – spry with no brittle bone condition – who broke your leg and then, falling again, your back. That would be about as relevant to this thread. So instead of speculating on the very worse case scenario that could have happened in evaluating the situation, let’s look at what did happen: The woman was subdued with no injury to either herself or the officer. Exactly the result Tasers were intended to obtain.
She wouldn’t have been actively resisting arrest at that point. That didn’t happen until he dragged her out onto the street for daring to open her naughty little mouth.
Can I have a link to the video you watched? The one linked in the OP isn’t all that high quality, and I’m afraid I’m missing all this “playground bully” subtlety that you’re detecting. At what point in the tape does he steal her milk money and give her a wedgie?
I mean, I’d love to be as angry as you are, I’m just having trouble working up the antiauthoritarian ire on this one.
No, he had her step out of the truck because she refused to sign the ticket he was presenting to her. And going 15 mph over the speed limit in a construction zone is no joke.
I totally agree with Jodi. The officer had to make an on-the-spot call.
We’ve all seen other videos of cops out control and being rough, after being pumped up by adrenaline in a chase. Of course I don’t agree with those, but I understand why it happens. It’s in their job description to deal with the scum of the earth.
This video shows one such encounter, although there’s no chase and adrenaline involved. He tries to control her and fails and must make some hard decisions right then and there. He had only a few seconds to think about whether to go down the physical control road, or the right to the taser. I think he chose correctly, and for all those saying the guy is a cocky bully, well, I personally don’t want the sensitive, meek officer dealing with the scum of the earth. Once you make the decision to go against anything an officer is telling you to do, you enter a whole new world of risk. That the officer has had a bad day, or is by nature one snotty comment away from whipping out the taser or night club is just one of those risks (and this officer was neither, IMO). Will the taser stop a pacemaker? Who cares? If you have one and get tased, maybe you should have thought about that before escalating the situation.