Texas Holdem Etiquette/Rules??

In My Humble Opinion
1

This happened last night, and it still bothering me. I play poker with a group of friends a couple of times a month. It is usually the same core players, with a few new friends of friends from time to time.

We are playing Texas Holdem. It is down to me and one other guy. He is one of new people, I have know him for years, but never played poker with him before. I am chip leader, but not by much. It is getting late, and I know we are close to one of us going all in to end it. We look at our pocket cards. I have Ks 7s. He raises quite a bit. I don’t really like this hand, but decide I will stay in. The flop is Kc 9s 6s. He raises quite a bit again, I stay in, figuring I have two more chances at a spade, or another King. Next card is 5h, he goes all in. I am tired, I go all in with him. River card is not a king or spade, it is 8d. He flips his cards over and I see he has two pair, and say, “It’s yours.” Everyone wants to see what I had, I flip mine over, and they all laugh. I don’t get it, then they point it out, I had a straight. I didn’t even see it, so tired, and looking for the flush or trips.

Then he starts to take the chips anyway. He says I didn’t “call it” and that means he wins. Everyone at the table knows I am dsylexic, and often don’t see straights on the table. Not sure why, I just don’t see consecutive numbers out of order very easily. The rest of the group says they have never heard of having to “call it”. Someone points out in Vegas, it is the dealer who declares the winner, and we had a dealer that night, and she declared my hand beat his. He says we aren’t playing in Vegas, and since I didn’t “call it” I don’t win.

So tell me, is there such a thing as having to “call” what you have? And is this really so unusual for someone to have a winning hand, but they didn’t see it? It happens to me quite often. Poker for us is more of a social thing. A good excuse to drink beer and spend time together. We play for fairly low stakes.

But I am now wondering if I should avoid playing with people outside my normal group. I don’t ask anyone to double check my cards. They do it on their own. And when I played in Vegas, I was at tables with mostly beginners, so we all pretty much sat back and waited for the dealer to say who won. And several times at those tables someone had something they didn’t realize they had, but that was mostly from being new, and not knowing what beat what in certain circumstances.

What do you think? Do you have to call what you have? Should I be prepared to do this if I play with others? Anyone come across situations like this?

2

Generally, house rules are “cards speak”. As long as you didn’t muck your hand (which it doesn’t sound like you did), the fact that you misread what you had doesn’t matter. And no, you don’t normally have to call what you have. In the situation you describe, you should have taken the pot. Of course, they’re called “house rules” for a reason. But I’d say, if this wasn’t decided on in advance, you should have won the pot.

3

Oh, and I should add: if you were playing in a casino and not a home game, you DEFINITELY would have been awarded the pot (again, assuming you hadn’t thrown your hand into the muck).

4

If you’re playing with new people, that’s something that should be agreed on before the game - either “cards speak” or “people speak.” “Cards speak” is a lot simpler and less likely to result in a disagreement, just because there’s no timing or judgement involved. With my usual group, we play “people speak,” but I think that would be a lot more difficult if we hadn’t been friends for years. It’s rare for one of us to miss a hand, but it still happens occasionally, and disagreements still come up in a game that’s been going on between good friends for 7 or 8 years.

But there’s another issue at play too - you said “it’s yours.” In my mind, that’s equivalent to folding or mucking your cards and surrendering any claim to the pot. Once you do that, it is his.

If I were in your shoes, I’d let the guy have the pot this time and not invite him back. Poker games work best if everyone’s on the same page, and it sounds like he’s out of step with the rest of your group.

5

Again, house rules and all can certainly make a difference, but this isn’t true in casino poker. See “Robert’s Rules of Poker” (written by Robert Ciaffone, a well-known authority on poker cardroom rules). See specifically the section on The Showdown, rule #2:

.

6

Except in some home games where it’s specifically understood that you have to call your hand, “cards speak” is virtually universal. It doesn’t matter that you said “it’s yours” – you tabled the best hand face up, end of story.

The only ways you could have surrendered your claim to the pot would be to show a worse hand than your opponent or to fold you hand face down.

7

If there’s a dealer and the dealer says you win, then you win (whether you say “it’s yours” is irrelevant). Cards speak. Now if there’s only the two you and you’re dealing to each other and you say “it’s yours” then he wins.

8

So did he end up keeping the pot or did he bow to what appeared to be the will of the majority and give it up? Which is what he should have done since cards speak.

I’m also curious as to when he made his two pair and which two pair they were. Based on the betting you describe I’m guessing K5, possibly suited?

Something similar happened to me once. I had pocket Aces in position and this one guy would not go away. By the river there were four diamonds on board and I only had a couple thousand in chips left and something like a 40,000 chip pot. He put me all in, I said something like “I just have aces, if you caught your flush you caught your flush,” called and turned up my hand. He did have the flush but one of my aces was the diamond (which I’d forgotten) so I had the nuts. He tried to claim the pot saying I’d called my hand as aces but he was dissuaded by me and several other large gentlemen pointing out the correct rule and noting that should he not remove his hand from the chips he might find himself drawing back a stump.

As long as it’s understood before the game starts that cards speak, and as long as it’s understood that players have an obligation to help make sure pots are awarded correctly so that if a player misreads their hand another player points it out, there shouldn’t be any problem playing with people outside your normal group. I finally got a home game going about a month ago and every time we’ve played new people have cycled in and out.

9

Strongly disagree. As long as the hand isn’t mucked and absent a house rule to the contrary, the best shown hand wins no matter what the players say.

10

You are in the right, IMO.

If you read Jim McManus’s fascinating book about the 2000 World Series of Poker, Positively Fifth Street, you’ll see a somewhat similar situation.

Two players, Hasan and Lazarou, are in an all-in contest. They each turn over their cards. Hasan has A-9, and Lazarou has A-6.

The flop comes 5-5-K, so Hasan is ahead with his bigger kicker (9 v. 6)

The turn is an 8, so no change.

When the river comes up a J, Lazarou gets up and leaves the table, and the dealer pushes the pot to Hasan.

But what the dealer and the others players at the table failed to realise is that this should have been a split pot. Because the best possible hand for both players was 5-5-A-K-J, their kickers were irrelevant.

Someone in the crowd informed Lazarou of the error, and he ran back to the table. Everyone ageeed what the cards had been, and they took money back from Hasan and split the pot.

This can all be found on pp. 279-280 of McManus’s book.

11

Thanks for all the responses. I guess I am glad this happened when it did, so I can be careful to avoid another situation like this. I had never heard of “people speak”. In the future I will make sure we are clear on it being “cards speak.”

If I should play with others, and they prefer to play “people speak,” I will know I should probably not play in that type of game. I can have pocket Kings, then see another King on the flop, and still just be 99% sure that means I have three kings. Until I can put all three cards next to each other, I know I may be making a mistake, about what I see. And about 1 out 100 times, I do make a mistake like that, and see a full house, when really I only have two pair. So having to call what I have would make me a nervous wreck, and I would be better off sitting that out.

As to this particular game. I did just turn my cards up and place them in front of me, I definately didn’t muck them or fold. The other guy had K 8 which means he just caught the second pair on the river. I think that added to his outburst because he thought he was so lucky to have caught it. He could tell I was tired, and figured I would go in with not much just to end the game, which was somewhat true.

And when he first told me I didn’t call it, and that meant he won, I pretty much just gave in. Figured he was right, I just didn’t know the rules. But everyone else at the table disagreed, and insisted I take the pot. I told him he could have it if he really felt I was in the wrong. ( I had just won the previous game, knocking him out to leave me and one other, so I was already up $100 bucks and happy with that ). But he could tell he would be the bad guy if he took it, so he let me have it, but I know he felt cheated about it. If I could do it over, I would split the pot with him, saying that was my cost of learning to make clear in the beginning what the rules are.

So thanks everyone for the discussion. I will be sure to have the rules stated ahead of time in our future games.

12

My dad taught me that if you have 4 aces and you call it 2 pair, then you have 2 pair. I’ve always held myself to “people speak” and have been know to hold playes who I think ought to know better to “people speak.” The folks I play with think the same way. If we have a new person at the table who is nice to have around, then we’ll show him the ropes, check the hands he folds and maybe tell him to pick his cards back up if we think that’s what we’d do, and in general if folks are getting drunk then we will default to “cards speak” without even saying it. I only play friendly games though. If a new person gets serious and argues with the unspoken “house rules” we don’t bother not inviting them bback, we tell them to leave. Now. And no, you still don’t get to win that last hand.

That said, there is mischief on the part of the dealer some times. My favorite episode was when I was dealing was when I called the game, “7 card no peek, Brian can’t win.” Brian was new and didn’t listen to anything after “peak.” He ended up with the best hand. The look on his face when everyone denied his grab for the pot was priceless.

13

One other thing that was not mentioned was that in an all-in situation, both players cards are to be turned up immediately. That said, it should have been impossible for you to have mucked your cards as both players’ hands were public knowledge. This, in my opinion, solidifies that you should have been awarded the pot.

14

I had a similiar situation with one of my neighbors. He thought he only had a pair, and my two pair had won. I told him his flush was best, and the pot was his. Of course we were all drinking, and I was well “up” for the night, but as far as I was concerned he had the best hand and the pot was his.

15

I’m reminded of a line from the movie rehash of Maverick, in which the Riverboat Captain, played by James Coburn, expresses mock disappointment at his hand after the opponent lays down something pretty nice and usually a winner, a flush perhaps. Captain says “well, I only have two small pair. Sixes, and sixes.” Captain wins the hand.

Personally, I go in for cards speak.

16

Next time you’re in a “people speak” game, just call four aces every time. You’ll switch over to a “cards speak” game pretty quickly. Unless the person you’re playing against keeps getting royal flushes, damn their eyes!

17

I don’t play regularly, but I’ve thought of joining a game found on an online list of local tables. The site posted house rules, and they were an eye-openner. A few of the games (not many) posted rules like:

“just like xxx casino, if you miscall your hand, you lose, even if either the real or miscalled hand wins.”

I never joined in.

Definately go for cards speak. I live in NE USA, and I think the casino mentioned was one of the ones in Conn.

18

Every reputable card house and home tournament I’ve played in insists that card speak for themselves. It is the ONLY fair way to play the game.

I’d also suggest in the future that you agree to split the prizes if a game runs so late that everyone is tired and cranky. No good can come from 3am gambling between friends that don’t want to be up that late.

19

I was playing in an AC Poker Room and a guy called “2 Pair… 2 red queens and 2 black queens.” There was one guy in the hand with a full house. The dealer gave the pot to the guy with 4 of a kind and the full-house guy went ballistic. It escalated to a pretty nasty situation with the full-house guy screaming and threatening and being taken out of the room.

Personally, I wanted to see the 4Q guy lose the pot for being a prick, but yours seemed like an honest mistake. If it were a friendly game in someone’s house, the best hand would win, same as the casino… however, you would have to deal with the ribbing for missing a straight for all eternity.

20

I see no problem in “being a prick” there. How many hours go by before seeing one four of a kind come up for anybody? Moreso that you win against a boat with it (and probably for decent money, judging by the FH’s reaction). Damn straight I’d gloat. That’s the type of hand that makes your night.