A) As far as I know, you did not say you hated gay people, and as far as I know, no one has implied you do. A substantial amount of people do hate gay people in the name of God, however.
I am sorry that your wife is unable to bear children naturally, and I don’t doubt that it is very upsetting. Thankfully, the two of you are able to make the best of the situation, through adoption as a legally-recognized married couple. Now imagine not even being allowed that much, because your love with your partner isn’t good enough for society or the massive influence of religion that, in large part, dictates society’s values.
For the life of me, I have never heard anybody “completely dismiss” all the other people involved in said situations. “Thank God for saving me, despite the invasive obstruction of all those pesky rescue workers” :rolleyes:
Anybody who genuinely believed God played a part in their fate will be the first to believe (and acknowledge) that that same God worked through the efforts of others to help them.
Anybody who is only paying lip service to “God” is likely to know who they really want to thank and be sure and thank them anyway.
I have never heard anybody diss those instrumental to their good fortune, and heap all the credit on God alone.
I was thinking something along the lines of the OP the other day, only a whole lot quieter and a whole lot more internally.
Shark Week has been on Discovery, which is nothing good in and of itself, except that Mike Rowe was hosting. On one of the shows, called Shark Survivors or some such, this one guy was relating the incident.
He claims that he was being eaten by a shark, fighting back, ah ah ah, until he told God to come down and save his ass, at which time the shark just up and swam away.
In reality, I think it went more along the lines of, “Oh fuck, ow, God damnit! Get away, oh God, hey I needed that hunk of flesh, Jesus Christ, there goes my arm! God freaking damn, shark’s hurt! Oh God!”
Etc, etc. My point is, I’m sure he didn’t just “pray” to God once. I’m sure he was screaming out his great lord and savior’s name as much as possible, and as it happens the shark left in the middle of his great tirade against the great bastard of the sea.
Well, if God did in fact “come down” and save him, that explains all the other horrible shit that happened to other folks that day. God was auditioning for Shark Week.
Do gay people not get married ? I realize it’s not recognized legally but does that stop people from doing so ? To me , one of the key points of religion is NOT to judge people. Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t throw the not having children thing out there to garner sympathy , I would be scared shitless to bring a child up given the current state of things , but i don’t think hating people because they believe in God or NOT will make anything better for anybody escpecially because they thank God for whatever.
Being grateful and being grief-stricken are not mutually exclusive, and it is the rare rightous asshole who would interpret such good fortune as a reflection of merit.
If your spouse or child were the only survivor of a plane crash, would you think “Wow, that was lucky! I’m so glad they made it!”, or would you think “They don’t deserve to live because nobody else did either”? Of course, you’d only be human to rejoice in the (qualified) good news. You might think it’s random luck and others might attribute it to divine influence (though by no means “earned”), but being glad for something good–especially something “miraculous”–that happens to you is nothing to apologize about.
What’s arrogant is the assumption that everyone who publicly thanks God believe they are deserving. What’s arrogant is making the gross generalization that anyone who is grateful to a higher power has only the most malign and self-serving of motives. Sure, some arrogant people are out there who make such a public show disingenuously, but sincerely thanking an entity you believe is responsible for your good fortune is a sign of humility, not arrogance. Pity you can’t seem to tell the difference.
Okee Dokee! Well, where to start? Lets go back to front, shall we?
Who said anything about apologizing for surviving? You are arguing a position I have not taken. Use it on someone else.
I believe neither in luck nor divine influence so you missed the barn by a bit there as well.
Ditto miracles.
I said nothing about such imagined influence being “earned.” (It’s called the “Strawman Fallacy.” ) Good one to avoid.
Ditto “deserve(d) to live.”
Do you garden? That big strawman could keep the crows away all day. Where did I sppeak of motives, malign or otherwise? Where did I speak of belief that one deserves saving? Chill the fuck out man.
If someone can look around at a field of carnage and believe that God singled him out for survival, he is arrogant beyond belief, regardless of whether he believes he deserved it. Hell, if he believes he did not deserve it, God looks even more like a capricious ass.
It is an inescapable point of logic that if God was there saving some folks, he was deliberately not saving others. So I ask you again–why did he let the others suffer and die if he was, you know, on the scene and in saving mode?
Omegaman, I think you and I think similarly about these things, we’re just missing each other with details. I realize that at the core, Christianity (because that’s what I’m most familiar with) is supposed to be about love and respect for each other (with some God-worship in there, too). Pretty good deal, I think we can all agree. However, there is unfortunately so very much hatred and evil done in the name of Christ, coming from both illiterate hicks and from the powers that be in the Church, that it becomes nigh-impossible for the general awareness to seperate the Church of Love and Respect from the Church That Hates Those Filthy Fags. Bad for society, and bad for those in the religion who aren’t fucked in the head and understand what Christ’s message actually was.
QUOTE=Troy McClure SF]Omegaman, I think you and I think similarly about these things, we’re just missing each other with details. I realize that at the core, Christianity (because that’s what I’m most familiar with) is supposed to be about love and respect for each other (with some God-worship in there, too). Pretty good deal, I think we can all agree. However, there is unfortunately so very much hatred and evil done in the name of Christ, coming from both illiterate hicks and from the powers that be in the Church, that it becomes nigh-impossible for the general awareness to seperate the Church of Love and Respect from the Church That Hates Those Filthy Fags. Bad for society, and bad for those in the religion who aren’t fucked in the head and understand what Christ’s message actually was.
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I agree. That hate thing is the root of pretty much all the bad stuff that goes on, regardless of its origin. I guess it’s up to us to do as much good stuff to ofset it.
So, if you’re 1 in 10 million to have something good (or bad) happen, that’s just…life? Most people would attribute it to “luck”–not necessarily some invisible force, but a circumstance that goes counter to the law of averages. Now maybe you’re the type of person who can’t be phased by anything, not even the most “miraculous” of unlikely eventualities, but I suspect you aren’t. Everyone has a threshold of credulity, where they say, “Wow, I honestly didn’t expect to have that happen!” That’s all I mean by “luck”.
No, but you did snidely say this: “Why did he not save the others? Oh wait. I bet I know. He loved them so much he wanted them to be in heaven with him, right?” Your sarcasm is thick & hearty here, so please don’t act like your question was an oh-so-innocent one. You’re the one who brought a “reason” behind some people’s fates into this conversation.
And you may not have said anything about “earned” or “deserved” but you did say "That seems the height of arrogance to me. Why did he not save the others? " Since you don’t clarify how this is arrogant (and you still don’t), I made a reasonable assumption that you attributed it to piety (allow me to say that your sarcastic tone contributed to me making this particular interpretation).
When you attributed such behavior to arrogance. The concept of someone saying (and believing) these things without arrogance seems foreign to you, so why wouldn’t I think you’d assign a motive to it? Most people who behave arrogantly do so for a reason (if nothing more than a sense of entitlement).
Why? What exactly is so arrogant about it? Unless you believe you did something to “deserve” it, the carnage is a remarkable reminder of how fortunate you were to escape others’ fate.
Your use of the term “singled out” is a loaded one too, as if they are uniquely “selected” (as for a purpose). Some people might ascribe a purpose, but the fundamental act of thanks is simply to show gratitude for God’s mercy. He could’ve allowed you to die, but he didn’t.
If you were in a hostage situation, and six of your fellow hostages were gunned down, but you were spared, would that make you arrogant because you were “singled out”? You don’t know why they didn’t kill you, but they didn’t. You survived something perhaps you shouldn’t have. Would that just be another la-de-dah life circumstance? Or would you be grateful? And if you can be grateful to no one in particular, what makes that different from someone who’s grateful to someone in particular? Or would you be grateful to the gunman? He is the one who chose not to kill you after all. Or would you be too upset by everyone else’s death to allow for even one second the thought to enter your head that you’re glad you’re alive? Somehow I doubt it.
You’re right–it is an inescapable point of logic. The answer? Honestly, I don’t know. That’s where the humility comes in–“there but for the grace of God go I”. Thanking God is an acknowledgement that you could’ve been on the receiving end of a fate or misfortune or tragic circumstance suffered by hundreds/thousands/millions of people. But you weren’t. Did God allow those things to happen? Maybe so. Was God responsible for you having a different fate? Maybe not. Maybe it just happened. Maybe there is no God.
I can’t speak for all God-fearing folk, so I’ll just say that the thing about God, for me, is that, being as all-knowing and all-powerful as I’m assuming “he” is, (a) he does allow bad things to happen just like he allows good things to happen, (b) there is no disernible way to tell why he allows such things to happen, and (c) it would be presumptuous for me to think good or bad things happen as a reflection of what he thinks of me. Now, I am free to interpret these things (or not) and resolve myself to view things differently (or not) based on my belief that God sometimes allows bad things to happen for good reasons, but I don’t know that either. I would like to believe that to be the case, but I don’t know. That’s where Faith comes in.
That doesn’t necessarily make any number of horrible news stories you hear every day any more palatable, or acceptable, or easy to hear (cue glib “mysterious ways” cue). But it does allow me to believe that maybe, for all the bad things you hear about, some positive thing can result from it–not necessarily a proportional thing, but maybe a modest, positive thing none-the-less. Now, maybe you’re the type of person who resolutely refuses to believe any good thing can possibly come from any bad thing. Maybe you’re the type of person who refuses to see any point in seeing the glass as half-full, or who refuses to “make lemonade” when life serves you lemons.
But I suspect you aren’t. That impulse (let’s call it Hope) is something you may ascribe to Human Nature. Or Human Naivety. But for some of us, it also demonstrates that there just might be a God out there that can be as benevolent as he can be seemingly callous or indifferent. And in the long run, you want to believe the good stuff more than balances out the bad, even if the “reasons” on a case-by-case basis elude you. Sometimes, it may be difficult to see how, and if my wife dies tomorrow, or my house burns down, or if my life spirals downwards to destitution and despair, that whole sentiment may be a hard sell. It’s certainly not something I would use as a knee-jerk strategy to console people or assuage their grief or explain all the evil in the world. But that doesn’t mean I can’t believe it might be true.
Many years ago I saw a newsreel story about a tugboat that lost power in the Niagara River above the falls. With a three man crew aboard it drifted until it grounded 50-100 yards from the falls. Fire and police emergency crews worked for several hours at quite a risk to themselves to get lines aboard and finally effect a rescue of the crew. The captain thanked God.
A good friend of mine’s husband is a firefighter. He says they are more likely to get cussed out for a) not getting there sooner, or b) not saving enough/ruining stuff with water, than they are to be thanked. But you’ll see the burned out folks on the news thanking “God” that they got out all right.
I’m not sure you understand the law of averages. One in ten million evnts occur. In fact, we have a method of predicting how often they can be expected to occur. It’s called the law of averages.
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Well, you have a non-standard definition for the term.
Please explain how I am acting as if my question were innocent, and what bearing it would have if that were the case. You have lost me here. What difference does it make if I am masking my guilty question as an innocent one? The key question is ‘can it be answered?’ If so, how?
Yes I did. Good catch, what with it being my premise and all. However, you missed the part where I was questioning God’s reason, not the savee’s.
Okee Dokee. Allow me to clarify what seemed blindingly obvious to me. When a person looks about and sees that he is the sole survivor of an awful event that claims dozens of lives, and then proclaims that he is selected, not by chance, or as a result of effort on his part, but by intervention by the being who is responsible for all creation, that person is, by definition, saying that he is special. If you claim that you are special enough to make God sit up and take notice then you are arrogant to the nth degree. Especially when it would have been but the work of a moment to save everyone else.
The behavior is arogant. The motive in question is God’s.
Steady on there, Bessie. Is it fortune, or an act of God. If the latter, did he intend the carnage to be an object lesson for the survivor? This guy is looking more and more like bullying punk.
So it was random? He did it for no reason at all? And you worship this guy?
Singled out by God? Yep. Arrogant.
Not grateful. Happy, relieved, pumped, giddy, scared, overwhelmed…but not grateful. To whom, exactly?
Right. Now God is “someone in particular.” Seems a bit bit shy of praisewirthy, Father of us all, Creator, Omni-everything.
If there were someone who was directly responsible for my survival, I would probably be grateful to him. And I would probably ask him why he chose me, which is more or less what I am doing in this thread.
What the hell does being glad to be alive have to do with thanking God for being alive.? Really. Is everyone who is glad about something thanking God? (Cheatsheet answer : No.)
If there is no God all my questions are answered. The people are clearly delusional.
You left out all-good. By error or on purpose?
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Now, maybe you’re the type of person who resolutely refuses to believe any good thing can possibly come from any bad thing.
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Oh sure. Good gthings can come from bad things. That fact is hardl a justification fornthe nbad things. Not even close.
If life hands me lemons, and sugar, and clean water, and a pitcher, and ice? Lemonade all day long. Just lemons? Well you try it.
Might be true means might not, right? So thanking God is what, hedging your bets? Seriously, I want too know.
I just want to know why no baseball pitcher who ever served up a game-winning home run (hello, Billy Wagner, last night’s blown save master) has responded by pointing down.
Just popping in with an actual fact. Gay couples surely can and do adopt. Single people and unmarried couples also adopt. They don’t check your Certified Christian Marriage Card during your homestudy.
There are certainly people who don’t agree that they should be able to, but that’s not quite the same thing as actually not being allowed to.
Maybe I need to add the word “publicly”. I recall many news stories where God is thanked and nary a mention of the rescue workers, fire fighters, surgeons etc. You see it all the time with actors, musicians, athletes. I expect the other people are thanked, but in private. When God is thanked above all else I consider that dismissive. Saying God saved me through your efforts is giving God all the credit.
