The only thread I started “baiting the bigots” was the “suck my dick” thread, which was A) obviously intended to be outrageous and hyperbolic, and B) closed as a “joke thread.” If that’s all you got on me, well, suck my dick. 
how do they feel about you stabbing them in the back right now?
This is a debate? I thought it was just you tossing shit around like an epileptic chimp. I’d hate to see what you call a trainwreck.
Refusing to engage people that are morally and ethically bankrupt is perfectly correct.
That is different, as you are just cutting off comminication, not going to her work, and throwing vomit in her office yelling “BIGOT!” then throwing vomit on people passing by going “What’s going on?” and yelling “BIGOT!” at them, then throwing vomit on random people and people saying “stop throwing the vomit, it accomplishes nothing!” And you respond with “All those against vomit throwing are BIGOTS!!!”
That is what lissenner is doing.
Hello, is this thing on?
Asshole bigot homophobe. What were you, a Mississippi sheriff in a past life? You’re like, Mad-Libbing classic racist bigot talk with different nouns, adapting it to homos. “The blacks would get more respect if they acted more respectfully. That’s what happens when people don’t know their place. Hell, I’d be on their side if they weren’t so damned uppity about their ‘rights’ all the time.”
Nice, lissener. You have indeed established that behaving like an asshole doesn’t hurt other people who are advocating your cause: by comparing this argument to the argument made by Mississippi sherriffs, you’ve got an airtight case.
Of course, you could also look at how the Sierra Club responds to Earth First!ers who totally alienate logging communities instead of working with them, or you could look at the difficult relationship between Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, or you could look at how people on the fence about feminism often look at the words of a few frothing feminists to conclude that feminists are wacky.
Be crazy and assholish to homophobes if you must, but please – for the sake of people who ARE trying to do the education still, refrain from throwing shit at people who might still be convinced. You don’t need to educate them yourself, but you could at least get out of the way of people who ARE willing to educate them.
To do otherwise is to undermine yourself, in the same way that Robin Morgan has undermined intelligent, persuasive feminists.
Daniel
Yeah, I should get out of the way. I should stop launching Pit threads about myself.
Oh . . . wait . . .
Sure. And if you then rant and rave and go off on how they are evil irrational close minded bigots and worthless human beings and whatnot, rather than yourself responding in a reasonable tone, then they’re not the only ones at whom your charge can be reasonably levelled.
Cite?
Cite?
But lissener HASN’T ranted and raved. He has dismissed these people as homophobes.
As far as I’m concerned, he is refusing to engage them. Good for him. It’s not his job to be a crusader for gay rights, just because he’s gay, and he’s not obligated to acknowledge hateful, ignorant comments with a well thought out response. I think “You’re an asshole homophobe.” is a perfectly acceptable response to many of the comments I’ve seen directed at lissener.
That’s true; you didn’t start this thread.
However, I’m not seeing you leaving much room in it for anyone on your side to come in and educate the homophobes in it; instead, I’m seeing you doing your best to be so offensive to them that they’ll stop reading the thread.
That’s gonna make it hard for other people to educate them.
Sure, this thread doesn’t need to be about education – but I’ve gotten the same over-vicious vibe from you in several other threads over the last week. Hell, I’m on your side, and I’m avoiding those threads now; if I were opposed to your viewpoint, there’s no way I’d hang out there and soak up the venom.
And that means I wouldn’t be exposed to gay rights advocates who might convince me that there was a point to gay rights.
I just think you’re hurting the people who are trying to do the hard work of education by being so vicious. It’s fine to ignore homophobes. I just have a problem with your willingness to attack people at the drop of a hat.
Daniel
Lissener, I think what a number of people are trying to tell you here is that they would dearly love to stand alongside you in your struggle against discrimination; they would but for one thing; you’re actively scaring them away; but it isn’t your homosexuality that scares them at all, it’s all the flailing and spitting.
Look. Daniel.
I always give everyone, EVERYONE, the benefit of the doubt. The only time I let the rude loose is AFTER someone makes it clear that their prejudices are more important to them than actually learning a new perspective.
I defy you find an example of anything else. I acknowledged being abrupt with Bippy; find me another one and I’ll acknowledge that too.
That’s fine with me. BUt when they start saying that I’M the reason they’re homophobic, not so much.
Sure, lissener. After I’d made my position abundantly clear, you posted to me (in two different posts):
So even after I’ve made my position very clear, you persist in insinuating that I’m a homophobe. It comes across like, since I’m criticizing you, you’re wielding the threat of a nasty label against me in an effort to get me to shut up.
Or what about, when I talked about the fluid nature of some folks’ sexuality to illustrate the point that if sexuality was genetically determined it was more complicated than an either/or proposition, and you responded with:
That was not only insulting to me; it was also insulting to my friend and my relative whom I was talking about. I gave no sign that they were “unsure of their sexuality”; instead, I’d discussed how their sexuality had changed.
That was the point where I said, “The hell with it,” and backed out of the current threads on sexuality in great debates.
I grew up dealing with issues of androgyny; most women I’ve had relationships with have been bisexual; I’ve received more than one physical threat from a homophobe based on their perception that I was gay. I figure that I have an interesting if minor perspective to add to such threads. But when someone is so rude in dismissing my thoughts, it makes me unwilling to be in the thread – especially when it’s someone whom I figure is my rhetorical ally.
I’d just ask you to be a bit more careful about whom you attack is all, and be careful about what you consider an attack.
Daniel
lissener, you’ll note, if you read carefully, that word “if.” As in, hypothetical.
Personally, I do think you’ve gone beyond the pall in this thread, but you indeed have failed to call anyone a worthless human being. Fortunately, I failed to say you had.
Now, ranting and raving… if you don’t see this thread as containing plenty of ranting and raving on his part, one of us fails to understand the meaning of the term. Perhaps it’s me.
As an example, though, let’s consider the following exchange:
Tars: lissener’s behavior makes me inclined not to care much about gay rights.
lissener: Homophobe! (parenthetical comment: we have now redefined homophobia to include apathy about the subject. Which is just stupid.)
Tars: I am no such thing. In fact, I hang out with the gay crowd at times. (parenthetical comment #2: The entire idea that being friends with members of a group and exhibiting no bigoted behavior about said people is not an absolute defense against charges of being bigoted against that group just goes to show how irrational some people are.)
essentially the same sorts of crap ensues for some time
Tars, further: lissener’s tactics offend people and cause more problems than they solve.
lissener: Asshole bigot homophobe! insert gratuitous and baseless insinuation of racism, just for kicks
NOW do you see some ranting and raving? There’s certainly a lack of logic and civility. No, I’m sorry: lissener is no pure innocent trying to make his way in a world bigoted against him, and unwilling to suffer fools gladly. He is, in fact, an asshole. So are those people bigoted against him, but that’s not an excuse.
Oh–you said IF. OK.
If I had a prehensile neck, I could wear my ass for a hat.
So it was entirely hypothetical: If I “rant and rave and go off”–you don’t actually think I’m ranting and raving and going off? You were speaking metaphorically? I mean, with just those isolated words, “evil” and “worthless”?
You know, g8r, at least be honest.
smacks forehead Of course I think you’re ranting and raving. I even said so, in the previous post. directs lissener’s attention upwards about 20 lines I don’t think you’ve used the words “evil” and “worthless,” because I have two perfectly functional eyes.
Is my point really that difficult to understand? Let me reiterate it then:
- Confront civility with civility.
- As bigotry is not civil, as you an alice point out, feel free to call a spade a spade.
- Nevertheless, if one calls a spade not a spade but a bulldozer (under the assumption that if the ability to move a little earth is bad, the ability to move a lot is worse), one is being an asshole.
That’s all there is to it. That you’re reading more than that into my words is perhaps understandable but also, as it turns out, incorrect. I trust we will have no further unfounded accusations of dishonesty.
I’m sorry; what is your position exactly?
There sexuality didn’t change; there unsureness did. Nonetheless, I don’t see my response as disrespectful in the least–
–certainly not an attack.
I don’t see either of those responses as attacks. Did those responses really leave you feeling attacked?
I wanted to apologize to you listener, I was in a really bad mood the other day and I had read some posts wrong, I reviewed the thread and saw my mistake.
:o
Again, I’m sorry about my posts in this thread.