That does it...we're all fucked

Great Debates
121

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I would view a woman dying because a society made her carry in her belly something that is disgnosed previous to her demise as something which would cause this to e a murder victim, yes.

Again, we are talking about late-term abortions here.

Now, sure, if there were late-term abortions being performed for the heck of it, I would have a problem with this. However, as has been said, this is not happening.

And I can tell you right now - If Drain Bead and myself were told several months into a pregnancy of hers that she needed to abort or even have a slight chance of dying, sorry, but we’re aborting (I believe I can speak for her on this). We can have other kids. If not, we can adopt. But I’ll never get another Drain Bead, and she is here NOW, not merely some potential.

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It is quite rude to not call a group of people what they like to call themselves. Whether you like the term or not, the condesension that you won’t call them that because you don’t like it is outrageous.

Would you still refer to black people as “Negros” if every other word that came since that black americans refer to their nationality/race somehow didn’t meet your standards?

And as for the political ramifications: I feel that your side is equally quilty of twisting language. As I mentioned earlier, there WAS no such term as “partial-birth abortion” until the Pro-Life movement invented it.

And since a vast majority of so-called “Pro-Life” people are FOR the death penalty and FOR increasingly hostile international policies and AGAINST all forms of gun control, I would say that your designation is considerably less substantiated by evidence than ours, thanks.

Now, you can choose to be both rude and a hypocrite if you wish. That is up to you.

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My utopian worldview (aside from the “no unwanted pregnancies” of my real utopia) has a family that can discuss this issue intelligently, rationally and openly. In this case, the best decision for the family is made.

This also has nothing to do with late-term abortions, I don’t think. As such, should you want to discuss this further, i suggest you start another thread. This is not just a tangent, it’s a whole arc! (Damn… Channeling Polycarp again…)

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As much as I hate to break up the love-fest: Bullshit.

I could, of course, come up with several things - such as thePlanned Parenthood FAQs which tells all about how it directly offers birth control, pre-natal care, adoption information and/or referrals to people who handle all of the above as choices, and counselors who are well-versed in helping people make their choice wisely.

(I realize that Planned Parenthood is not the be-all with this, but they are certainly a frequent target of your side.)

I could do this, but of course, it is your job to prove the assertion, not for me to disprove it.

**

I’m rubber, you’re glue…

Yer pal,
Satan

I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two months, three weeks, six days, 20 hours, 22 minutes and 48 seconds.
3553 cigarettes not smoked, saving $444.24.
Life saved: 1 week, 5 days, 8 hours, 5 minutes.

122

Hmmm…the old saying is “Speak of the Devil…” Apparently, if the Devil speaks of you…" :slight_smile:

Hey, SouthernStyle…I am opposed to abortion. Yeah, there are exceptions; I don’t think an eleven-year-old girl who just started her periods and then was raped is under any legal obligation to carry to term a baby that may destroy her capability to have children as a grown adult. And a woman with an ectopic pregnancy should definitely have it removed before it kills her. And that is, technically, an abortion – never mind that the embryo has almost no chance of making it to fetushood, much less birth. But the overall idea of terminating an unborn child’s life is one that makes me cringe.

But I don’t believe that I, or a bunch of 60-year-old men sitting in Raleigh or Montpelier or Olympia, have the right to make that decision for the woman. I have never been a 16-year-old girl who’s discovered she’s going to have a baby. I have not walked in her shoes. And I don’t believe I have the right to take her choice of what to do with that child away from her. I’ll lean over backwards to encourage steps that will avoid killing the baby. But I’ll stand by whatever decision she makes.

By the way, this is not hypothetical. We had a neighbor girl who looked to us as non-judgmental adults, and who was in precisely that position. And she toughed it out (her own moral upbringing played more of a part than our advice, but nonetheless…). She’s now married to the baby’s father. And a beautiful, bright, mouthy, winsome, 7-year-old redheaded girl with a face full of freckles is brightening our lives because of it.

But the bottom line is, it is, and should be, her choice. Not yours, not mine. The people who believe that there are women who repeatedly get pregnant and then have the baby aborted are living in the next dream world over from the folks who are channeling Atlantean adepts by hypnotizing themselves with pieces of quartz. (There may well be a couple of such women in the quarter billion US population, but the other 124,999,998 are as interested in making the right decision for themselves and for the possible baby as you or I or Satan and his bride.

123

Amen, Brother Poly.
Sigh. I guess I’ll chime in to offer myself as more evidence that one can be anti-abortion and still be pro-choice. I don’t want women to have abortions, and I’d be extremely offended if anyone tried to tell me I do. My utopia is the same as Satan’s–no unwanted pregnancies at all.

But that ain’t gonna happen any time soon. It sure won’t happen with demands for abstinence and it won’t happen by outlawing abortions. Not even late-term D&E’s.

So I support the right for women to have abortions. Even late-term abortions.

And I continue to support, with my time and money, programs such as Planned Parenthood which advance detailed sexual and birth control (as well as abstinence) as ways to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies.

-andros-

124

Er, that last pargraph should read “detailed sexual education,” of course.

125

Our laws should be much broader than individual morality. I may hate people who cheat on their spouse, but I don’t want it made legal for fear of approaching a theocracy.

Same with abortion. I don’t like it (and I don’t think anyone does) but I do not think it should be illegal. This is especially true of 3rd trimeter abourtions. They are horrific, but they should remain legal.

126

Ok, so now I am going to say a few things. I’ve been reading and reading and now I can stand no more.

First, to Mr. Zambizi: KUDOS!!! Finally a man (??) who understands that it really is no one else’s business WHAT we do with our bodies, but no one is scooping up the unwanted children already out there, is there?

Southern Style: A while back, you posted a request for information as to why??? Well, let me give you a few possible causes for the late term terminations:
About 7 percent of first-time mothers and 1 to 2 percent of mothers having subsequent pregnancies develop PREECLAMPSIA. The condition occurs suddenly, without warning, and sometimes in as little as a few hours. Usually, a pregnant woman with PREECLAMPSIA develops dangerously high blood pressure and begins excreting protein in the urine. In some cases, the condition may progress to eclampsia, a series of potentially fatal seizures.
OLIGOHYDRAMNIOS is the term that refers to a decreased amount of amniotic fluid.
ABUSE.
If you’ve ever known anyone involved with an abuser, you would know that many times, the repeated abuse will not only harm the woman, but truly endanger the child.
DIABETES
TOXEMEA (sp?)

These are just a few reasons why women terminate late.

DBCOOPER: While I understand your point about “the poor innocent child” as a result of rape, let me point out something to you. Having been the victim of such a horrifying situation myself, there is NO WAY I would have carried a child to term. I would rather have killed myself than endure a nine-month reminder of being invaded, brutalized and broken. Unless you have endured it yourself, there is NO WAY you will ever even remotely comprehend the horror of having to deal with being raped – without having a child-reminder.

SHIMMEL: A while back, you felt that the c-section might prove a more humane method/less archaic? Archaic is beng forced to give up your life for the life of a child that may or may not live anyway.

My feeling is that the whole point of bringing the Late-term ban up for law was so that the Anti-Choice advocates could chip away at Roe V Wade. While I don’t believe abortion should be used as birth control, I DO believe that it’s not right to discuss reproduction in public forum. As I have seen it, the vast majority of Anti-Choice advocates are men who have not had any experience with situations that would cause a woman to wrestle with this truly very difficult decision.

127

Satan:

I’m going to remember that next time a thread about the term “African-Americans” comes up . . . :wink:

:::::ducking, running and fleeing :::::

128

*pldennison: Notice I said call a group “what they call themselves,” not call them what a bunch of white guilty liberal males call them! :smiley:

And yes, I realize you are kidding… And yes, I am pretty sure you grasp the distinction here, even if you don’t necessarily agree, you being a white guilty liberal male and all… :wink:

Yer pal,
Satan

I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two months, four weeks, 12 hours, 37 minutes and 30 seconds.
3581 cigarettes not smoked, saving $447.63.
Life saved: 1 week, 5 days, 10 hours, 25 minutes.

129

Oh man, am I ever outnumbered here. (But not out-gunned!)

Every time the discussion gets off track I try to bring it back to the center, as do several of you, but sometimes we present tangents (or separate arcs) in support of a position and centrifugal force takes the thread down the that tangent.

Ok Satan, here’s something for you to “have a problem with”. Regarding late-term partial-birth abortions (or D&Es), according to the doctors that actually perform the procedures a 3rd trimester D&E is almost always for voluntary birth control. That’s already been discussed in this thread.

Every time abortion is debated, the “pro” side gets on their soapbox and argues about the life of the mother. Read the above paragraph. Most abortions, even late term ones are voluntary. Life threatening abortions are by far in the minority. The center line where the discussion should be is the morality of (late term) abortion.

The analogy about the 14 year was there to make a point. And that point is that even though the 14 year old may be biologically capable of birthing a baby, she’s certainly not mature enough to make the decision. Hell, the law has determined that she’s not old enough to give voluntary consent to having sex. She certainly isn’t old enough to determine whether or not she should have a baby. And you’re right, it does belong in a new thread if we’re going to discuss it.

So getting back to what once was the point of this discussion, I simply cannot understand a society (or the individuals that comprise it) that condones and accepts as normal the aborting of the unborn that is 1 second away from being what everyone would agree is a living, breathing, individual.

The laws of this country inflict far harsher punishment for kicking a cat than for killing a baby 1 second before birth.

P.S. I’ll be on vacation all of next week. This thread will probably roll off the cliff by then. But upon my return, I’ll be glad to take up arms in a new thread.

130

WOW. See, now I feel a little awkward about spouting off like that. I am assuming that all FOUR of you are men: Mr. Z, Satan, Polycarp and Andros. This would have to be the very first time I’ve heard (well, read) a MAN taking to the pro-choice side – (it is, after all, a choice). I am impressed and tip my proverbial hat to you all.

(satan, how did you quit smoking?)

131

“Ok Satan, here’s something for you to “have a problem with”. Regarding late-term partial-birth abortions (or D&Es), according to the doctors that actually perform the procedures a 3rd trimester D&E is almost always for voluntary birth control. That’s already been discussed in this thread.”

Hello? Did ANYONE read mine? Or are you just ignoring it because I MIGHT just know what I’m talking about? Those conditions are toxic to the fetus and are often causes for late-term terminations. I don’t know where YOU are getting YOUR facts, but the late-term termination is VERY rarely used and, in fact, nearly ALWAYS done for medical reasons. The reason WHY pro-choice advocates are fighting to keep it “open” is because the Anti-choice laws will be like a Domino Effect. First goes the late-term, followed by ALL, leaving women in back alleys again with coat hangers.

"The laws of this country inflict far harsher punishment for kicking a cat than for killing a baby 1 second before birth. "

OH, COME ON, NOW. You CAN’T be serious.

Just TRY to understand that you have to face this sort of dilemna with the understanding that YOU are the one who is pregnant – oh, wait…you can’t. You’re a man.

132

Ok Green, welcome (late) to the discussion.

According to Dr. Koop, the former Surgeon General of the U.S., in an interview reported in The American Medical News (1993), published by the American Medical Association.

This quote was previously posted in this thread.

Your statement:

True, but hardly an effective argument. You’re advocating keeping legal something that is abused far more often than is used to protect the life of the mother. Should we also legalize murder, robbery, rape, and arson so that we never incarcerate an innocent party? Perhaps laws governing the regulation of the procedure (and there are rules and regulations governing many other procedures) should be written such that the procedure is defined as one to protect the life of the mother and is to be used only for that purpose.

I can be serious. And I am.

You are advocating abortion on demand for any reason. Killing an 8 1/2 month old fetus because the mother-to-be changes her mind is OK in your world. Even when the application of labor-inducing medication would produce a real, live, breathing, crying baby without miraculous or mechanical intervention.

There’s a construction crew working on the building as I type. If one of them were to step on a cat and tripped as he stepped down off the ladder and in his frustration kicked the cat he’d be in court, would be fined, and would be subject to jail time if the court were so inclined.
Now a couple of words about netiquette. You want to discuss? Great – let’s talk. YOU WANT TO SHOUT AT ME? Go find someone else with whom to get into a pissing contest. I’m outa here.

133

First, I would like to apologize for the caps thing. I am new to posting and thought that capitalization would be the best way to stress that word. Thank you for the pointer on “netiquette.”

You are right. I am advocating keeping the right to an abortion legal. I’ve done the research and realize that it’s better to have the procedure done in a sterile, safe environment. Even you must feel that it’s better to save one life than to lose them both?
And believe me, women will continue to practice abortion even if it is made illegal.

Dr. Koop, while a distinguished and intelligent individual, was obviously not referring to the dangers that can occur while a woman goes into shock from toxemia. Yes there have been women who died of Toxemia of late pregnancy, but it is a hard condition to diagnose until it is in its later stages, and with our improved diets, it really isn’t heard of much any more. I personally knew someone that had the condition, and she came out fine, but her baby died, because of the stress during the early labor that ensued. On one of the other lists that I belong to, a woman thought she was coming down with the flu, but 6 hours later ended up in the hospital dead from the stroke that was caused by toxemia. She was 8 months pregnant. Having a condition often overlooked myself, (Crohn’s Disease), I understand that doctors mean well and know that we women can be “hysterical.” (That was the term my friend heard from her doctor repeatedly) However, conditions like Toxemia do occur. I believe that is why late term abortion should remain an option.

I do not agree with the procedure myself. However, I do see why the court decided to allow the late term procedure to continue. It would have been the downfall of the whole Roe V Wade decision. That would be catastrophic for women. Those of us who have had the procedure early in gestation do it for private reasons, though not all are products of rape or incest. That is horrible enough.

See, even if the laws were written to allow rape, incest and life of mother, it still would not be enough for some people. There are those Anti-Choice people out there who believe that pregnancy gestation should rise above all else in importance. I am a fairly religious woman myself. I believe that our Lord will forgive and understand. It is written that he will forgive. That’s why he died for our sins. I find it outrageous that people use their faith as a weapon in this debate. (No, I’m not saying you did, but I have heard that often enough)

134

SouthernStyle: I am quite unsure about the quote from Dr. Koop, namely because many physicians disagree with what he said. I don’t have time to dig up citations here, but either the quote was taken out of context or he was letting his personal feelings on the subject get in the way of documented cases.

Let us not include slippery slope strawmen as you do when you say:

It is quite disingenuous and easily shot down.

As for your argument about people who “abuse” the abortion on demand, I would like some citations here. Specifically about late-term abortions, please. I would love to hear about how many women have frivilously gotten abortions at 7 months pregnant TWICE. :rolleyes:

I’m still waiting to see that this happens at all.

And if the choice is between the dangers that some woman might do this in the future or that a woman will die because the doctors are too busy debating as to what the percentages are to just do it because of some laws that you suggest, I’ll pick the former without hesitation.

Again, a cite or two would be nice.

And if someone hurts a cat or any other animal, that is reprehensible and should be punished. What you advocate, however, is punishing a woman by telling her that she is going to die or her fetus is going to die and she has to sit back and hope that he doesn’t.

Yer pal,
Satan

I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two months, four weeks, 15 hours, 26 minutes and 59 seconds.
3585 cigarettes not smoked, saving $448.22.
Life saved: 1 week, 5 days, 10 hours, 45 minutes.

135

Ok, HGREENE23. Now that what appear to be cooler heads are involved, welcome to the party. Let me respond to a couple of your comments. Please excuse the heavy parsing.

What research? Have you published, posted your findings on a web page, written a letter to the editor, ? This is the Great Debates forum of the SDMB. Such a claim will be challenged. I’m going to be lenient and just ask what you’ve researched and where you found your material.

That dog don’t hunt here. Third term abortions are rarely performed solely to preserve the life of the mother. They certainly aren’t performed to preserve the life of the infant. (Read on.)

He said that in 35 years of practice he had never known of the procedure being used for medical purposes. That seems pretty unambiguous.

So what you’re saying is that there was a time when the procedure had medical benefit but since Toxemia is now rare the procedure is archaic and/or obsolete?

The courts decision had nothing to do with how banning the procedure would undermine RvW. The decision stated that the law as it was written undermined RvW.

“Private reasons” in this case is synonymous with birth control. Let’s leave this discussion to other threads and wrestle with the topic of 3rd term abortions.

:: aside - though I’ve never known a woman that was impregnated as the result of a rape, I do know several women that have been raped. Some brutally. I must say that I know of no other torture that man has created that is as horrible or destructive as rape. Most women simply never heal completely. ::

Again, this is fodder for another thread. Responding quickly, I too was raised Christian and still consider myself such. (Though some may argue that being a Lutheran is out in the fringes somewhere. ;)) Forgiveness is the watch word - but I find it hard to fathom how one believes that the killing of the unborn is not a sin, but in the same breath says that they will be forgiven.

136

Another Pro-Choice voice chimes in with her 2 cents.
I certainly can be pro-choice and against abortion, BTW.

The AMA reports between 320 and 600 late term abortions in 1994 nationwide. This is by far the minority of abortions performed. It comes to about 2%, according to the Journal of the American Medical Association.
Here’s a little quote from the JAMA

That just give a few of the reasons why a woman might have a late term abortion.

I’ll be back with more in a bit.

137

This article, by David A Grimes, MD., speaks to the continuing need for late term abortions.

http://www.ama%2Dassn.org/special/womh/library/readroom/vol_280a/cv71005x.htm

Here’s a little more information for those of you who don’t care to read the whole article.

Here’s a link to an article that spells out what the difference is between late term abortions and partial birth abortions. http://prochoice.about.com/newsissues/prochoice/library/bllatetermlies.htm

It’s graphic, and I don’t think I need to spell out the difference here on the board.

138

to me, while the fetus is a fetus [ie, in the body of the mother-to-be … or not-to-be.] then the woman should have the final say on what is done or not done. i can give all sorts of things that i think suport my view, but it comes down to my belief that each person has sole ownership over their own mind-body-life.

of course i assume that one cannot violate another’s mind-body-life. so if someone believes that the fetus is a human with the same mind-body-life rights, then there is an apperent opposition my viewpoint.

so i look at wider rights. the people opposed to me wish to impose their belief system onto me and prohibit me from having a [partial birth] abortion. so do i get to impose my belief system on them and insist that they must have an abortion??

luv,peace,happiness

139

Southern Style,

“So what you’re saying is that there was a time when the procedure had medical benefit but since Toxemia is now rare the procedure is archaic and/or obsolete?”

Again, I have to mention that I do know of two women who had severe toxemia. One of whom was able to save both herself and the child. The other had to choose between carrying it to term or making it through herself.

“The courts decision had nothing to do with how banning the procedure would undermine RvW. The decision stated that the law as it was written undermined RvW.”

The wording, I believe, is simply semantics. Do you really not believe that the authors of that law truly believed that if they could outlaw late term abortions, they would be able to do the same with the whole procedure? I may be a little cynical, but I do believe that the whole purpose of the law was to try to chip away at a woman’s right to choose.

“:: aside - though I’ve never known a woman that was impregnated as the result of a rape, I do know several women that have been raped. Some brutally. I must say that I know of no other torture that man has created that is as horrible or destructive as rape. Most women simply never heal completely. ::”

Well, though we have not met, you do know someone who was impregnanted as the result of a rape. I, fortunately, did not have to choose, as I miscarried. It is like no other horror imaginable.

“but I find it hard to fathom how one believes that the killing of the unborn is not a sin, but in the same breath says that they will be forgiven.”

I believe that with the guilt these women carry – self or society-imposed – that many women do feel it is a sin, in spite of how they may feel about the issue. I have a few friends who have gone through the procedure and still suffer terrible guilt. They still believe that it is the woman’s right to decide what happens to her body, but wish it wasn’t a decision they had to make. While I agree we should keep this on the topic of 3rd trimester, I just wanted to point out that there is still an awful stigma associated with the procedure.

Aenea: Thank you for chiming in. It is nice to see someone who agrees with me. Pro-choice and against it. I mean, I couldn’t do it myself, but I don’t think that it’s my place or anyone else’s to tell a woman she can’t.