beagleboy, you can probably pose that argument both ways. Here’s the other side. .
<Blockquote>If other folks didn’t like the idea of abortion, then fine…don’t abort…but why did they feel a need to impose their viewpoint on others?</Blockquote>
What then exactly is you’re argument?
It is by the fortune of God that, in this country, we have three benefits: freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the wisdom never to use either.
—Mark Twain
Sterling: You consistently fail to read the full text of my posts. That’s fine if you leave it at that, but it’s sheer ignorance if you intend to take umbrage with my statements.
I did not say all poor people should be sterilized, I said:
It would seem that I think unresponsible poor people (and not just the poor ones, by the way) should be sterilized. By inference, it would seem that you are saying that all poor people are, in fact, irresponsible. So it would appear it is you who are elitist. It is very easy to twist words.
I picked “Shaniqua Johnson” because it represents a black female, the direct opposite of “William Jefferson Clinton”, the rich white male of my example. Black women tend to have things WAY harder then white men, you know. They are discriminated against by society and stereotyped by the media. And through it all, most still manage to be the cornerstone of their family and culture. You object to this, huh? Why is it you don’t object to Clintons’ inclusion? Forgive me for not using a more PC name. Like “Pat”. Or maybe just initials like “WC” & “SJ” that way I can
offend no one, right? So what if the polarity of the example suffers.
Hell is Other People.
>?beagleboy, you can probably pose that >argument both ways. Here’s the other side. .
>If other folks didn’t like the idea of >abortion, then fine…don’t abort…but why >did they feel a need to impose their >viewpoint on others?
>What then exactly is you’re argument?
I was being sarcastic…most people today think that it was correct and just to impose a standard of morality on (mostly) Southern slave owner even if those doing the complaining may not have been slave owners themselves…
A common pro choice argument is that (1) only women (and often, only those women who become pregant) have a right to publicly offer an opinion on abortion and (2) people identified as pro life are imposting their moral values on other people…which is portrayed to be a bad thing…
Shit…a barrel full of legislation, from child labor laws, to civil right laws came from peoples sense of morality…many civil right marches were led by clergy (black and white) who often used moral/religious arguments to validate their claims…I wonder if many of the pro choice folks would think that those clergy should have kept their mouths shut…
Obviously the c in rap
is silent
Well, in Sake Samuri’s defense, I think he is the first SDMB poster to quote Sartre (in translation) in his signature. That’s gotta count for something.
My wide is pregnant now (one more month to delivery). Think of me what you will, but if we had been told somewhere along the way that the fetus had spinabifida, down’s syndrome, or some other noncurable, quality-of-life threatening disorder, I’d have advocated for an abortion.
WOAH!!! HEY!!! WOAH!!!
This is getting out of hand here. I’m going to have to jump in for my brother Sake here: his words were twisted. Just because he brought the issue of race into the argument doesn’t make him a racist, it makes him a realist. Jr. Freudians will tell you, Sterling, that you’re accusations are actually directed at yourself, and the way in which you interpreted the post. But I’m not going to go into that, for the sake of time and the fact that I’m running out of aspirin.
So we get back to the debate:
CandianSue: You’re my new hero.
This is true. Maybe he will die. But if he is aborted, he will most definetly die.
Oooooh. I was waiting for somebody to say that. This should be a thread unto itself. It certainly is an aspect of this debate that hasn’t been covered yet. I believe, firmly, that the father deserves a say in the decision. If the father offers to support the baby, he should be allowed to do so, both for his sake and for that of the child. If the mother has to go through labor, well, as Ben Harper sayeth, welcome to the cruel world. To abort a baby against the father’s wishes is probably the most insensitive and blatantly selfish thing that a woman could ever do.
The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.
I agree that whenever possible, the father should be involved in the decision-making process. But there’s something about a man (or anyone else, for that matter)forcing a woman to stay pregnant that just rubs me the wrong way. It’s not just the moral issues, either. While pregnancy is a temporary condition, it is a difficult one, and it does take it’s toll on the body.
If the man is willing to raise the child on his own, with no help from the woman, that is better than abortion, and it is an option that the woman should consider. If the man is just anti-abortion, isn’t willing to help raise the child after it’s born, and simply wants the woman to stay pregnant because he doesn’t agree morally with abortion, then I feel the decision is best left to the woman. If she shares his anti-abortion stance, that’s fine. Abortion is not the only option. If she wants an abortion, and is able to get one, then her decision should be the final one.
I understand that. But sometimes it’s difficult to do the right thing. The consequences of our actions aren’t always easy, but we have to face them. Abortion is an easy way out that allows women to duck responsibility for their actions at the expense of an unborn child’s life.
And on The Eighth Day, God created compromise.
Agreed, things like this can ruin relationships and cause an extensive amount of heartbreak.
Just one more reason why we should get rid o’ the damned things.
The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.
Um… No. It’s not. Just because a couple cannot decide what they want to do does not mean that we need laws TELLING EVERYONE what not to do.
Some people can make decisions on their own, thanks.
Sake: Would you agree that a man who kept getting (the same or different) women pregnant should also be sterilized ?
Satan, if we have differing opinions on the existence of a double standard, then we are in disagreement about the (perhaps I should say “a”?) double standard. That was my initial point. I wasn’t implying that you believed anything to the contrary.
Huh? I do hope I misread this, because I have never said I believe abortion should be banned, or should become illegal. Whose opinion and political agenda is being read into what I’ve posted? Whosever it may be, it isn’t mine.
It should be legal, only better moderated (i.e., the woman who’s had 11 abortions should be sterilized). I do question its use in certain circumstances, however.
My only real desire is to be omnicient (no, not you, Omni! 
), so that I might have all the answers to this mess. As it is, I do not, although I continue to search. (Damn it’s frustrating to know that it won’t end!)
I’m waving the white flag of truce–I am peaceably asking that we (collectively speaking, here) simply and respectfully agree to disagree. I’m also done posting to this thread; any extrapolation on what I believe would be moot, and likely would only perpetuate (if not escalate) the argument. That’s not because what I believe is so controversial (I’ve already explained it, anyway), but because it’s just the way endless arguments go.
I used to think the world was against me. Now I know better. Some of the smaller countries are neutral.
LauraRae:
Sorry to have confused you. That comment was NOT directed at you, nor was it about you.
It was about abortion rights constantly eroding, that’s all. Stole it from George Carlin, to be exact.
Oh yeah, absolutely! I hate those pathetic family men and their several children. That Eight is Enough show really pisses me off! Someone should have sterilized that SOB - the nerve of him to keep impregnating his woman!
Hell is Other People.
Now that was actually funny!!
Rousseau, hold it a second. This name discussion reminds me of a section in a George Carlin book (“Brain Droppings”) where he’d list names and ask you to guess the black one. There is a reason that black people choose the names they do when naming a child, as most any group of people do. Part of it is rootd in the black power movement of the seventies, some of it is cultural, some of it is a subtle peer pressure. (They actually do studies about these things. Around the mid nineties, they found that more African-American girls were being named “Khadijah.” They couldn’t figure out where the name came from. Eventually they discovered that Living Single premered in 1993. The star, Queen Latifah, played a character named Khadijah James. Also note the preponderance of little black boys named “Jordan”.) If you wondered why I believed that “Shaniqua J. of S.E. Kramer” was black, there you go. All ya’ had to do was ask. You may also note that Drain and Satan also accused Sake of the charges of if not being racist, then being incredibly insensitive. You may want to ask Sake, why Shaniqua (which isn’t all that common a name) popped into his head at first. Isn’t it easy for all of us to play armchair pscycologists?
It is by the fortune of God that, in this country, we have three benefits: freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the wisdom never to use either.
—Mark Twain
Excuse me if the tongue-in-cheek nature of that statement was not conveyed. That’s the problem with these damned boards. We should all just call each other on the phone. One huge conference call.
Most of the “armchair psychology” that I lay on people around here is in jest (directed at the Jr. Freudians who constantly spout it).
But if I really wanted to continue busting your chops, alls I would have to do is bring up the fact that your rebuttle was extensively long and redundant, and I would drop a little Shakespeare on you. Hamlet. You know which line I’m talking about.
The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.
Rousseau,
You said “I understand that. But sometimes it’s difficult to do the right thing. The consequences of our actions aren’t always easy, but we have to face them. Abortion is an easy way out that allows women to duck responsibility for their actions at the expense of an unborn child’s life.”
In light of the millions of men that duck out of their responsibility, I think women should have the upper hand here.
There are so many men that refuse to take responsibility not only on a financial end but also on an emotional end. I was lucky that I was adopted into a wealthy family and when my parents were divorced I was lucky that my father took responsibility for his kids on all ends. Unfortunatly, this is not the case for millions kids out there.
My birthfather probably would have never had anything to do with me had my birthmother kept me. My view as a child that survived my birthfather’s feelings that I “should be taken care of” is, he was the one that refused to take responsibility.
What if she had kept me, against his wishes? Is it then that the woman would be irresponsible? When a mother decides to keep her child against the father’s wishes and goes to court for child support, is she then irresponsible? It’s a double edged sword.
I believe that fathers should know, but this decision definately comes down to the woman’s right to decide what happens to HER body. I do believe as well that in certain circumstances that men should have some say, but never force a woman to have a child. There are as many reasons to keep a child, abort, or give up for adoption as there are people on this earth.
There will never be an answer to the abortion debate. It will forever be a topic of seriously strong views. I for one will try to understand another’s position, but will stand tall in my support of women making that choice no matter the circumstances.
And what if the woman is forced to have the child, and then the father splits? With the mother having no way to financially support the baby (we are assuming here–this is a stereotype of the highest order), the child will probably live in welfare-funded poverty. Not a very attractive life.
But it is a life.
I support women having control over what happens to their bodies, but “their bodies” are not what is in question here. The life of a child, born or otherwise, is what is in question. Agreed, carrying and delivering a child is not easy by any means. But when put next to the life of a child, it is nothing.
As for irresponsible fathers, I wish I could hunt every one down and beat him senseless before nuetering him. But I can’t. It’s not a perfect world we live in. But it’s a damn fine one, and everyone should have a chance to live in it.
The IQ of a group is equal to the IQ of the dumbest member divided by the number of people in the group.
Once again (I think this will make the third time this question was avoided in this thread), why should everyone have a chance at life? Why is this something that everyone deserves? Nobody ever has come up with a satisfactory answer to this question–in fact, nobody’s ever bothered to even try to answer it.
(Hijacking in progress.)
We had a thread sometime earlier about just what “racism” means.
Sorry–I have no idea what the Rice Wine Warrior is like in his personal life, but there is nothing in his posts that could be considered racist.
BTW, what ethnic heritage do you think these folks have:
Patrick Mulroney McDermott
Kwah Wei-po
Hashimoto Ryuishi
Jorge Luis Gonzalez
Helmut Muller
Abe Goldberg
(I think the “Shaniqua” type names date back to the “Roots” days–maybe a little farther.) Anyway, if you think a specific sounding name is a specific ethnic group–there’s probably a reason.
(Hijacking over–resuming course.)
To answer the OP again: It becomes a baby as opposed to a fetus when the woman decides that she is going to carry it to term.
To answer the second question, because the Supreme Court said that the right to an abortion is guaranteed by the Constitution.
Quote by Mjollnir in defense of Sake:
Tell Amazon.com to stop selling this book then. or these!
–We now return you to your abortion discussion–
Well, that (among other things raised in here) is debatable. Names, words in general, have a specific denotation (dictionary meaning) but they may also have a conotation (I dunno, I guess feeling wih it.) Now, I don’t know the former for “Shaniqua,” (I couldn’t find it in the baby name book I had, or from a bunch of online baby-name sites. I wonder why?) I do know the latter as it has a Africn American connotation. As much as Jorge Luis has a Latino connotation. Where do the connotations come from? I don’t know, Pop culture seems to play a role in it. I don’t see the myth dispelled much on Moesha.
Rosseau, all you really have to do is ask. The answer is, “I’m an ignorant college student.”