[open math nitpick] It will still take 51% of the voters to pass the expansion. The absolute number of voters is expected to be smaller, not the percentage required for approval. They are counting on the “anti library faction” to stay home. Surprise them and show up and vote! [close math nitpick]
Basically in our form of democracy the only people that count are the ones that get off their ass and vote. If you don’t vote, don’t complain (generic comment not directed at Carol).
Actually, it seems to me that public opinion must matter somewhat to unions. There’s a music festival I attend every summer, and one of their presenting sponsors is the UFCW - United Food and Commercial Workers. I don’t imagine you’d waste many thousands of dollars on a PR spend if you didn’t care about public opinion.
I understood “voter” to mean “someone who is registered to vote.” In that case, it will only take 18%. I know some people like to say “registered voters,” but that assumes the existence of non-registered voters.
I would also presume that they committed themselves to paying the ongoing costs of maintenance. Now they have a chance to get the pool up and running again for “free”.
So the city has four options - [ul][li]Accept the “free” upgrade/restoration, and pay for ongoing maintenance[]Accept the “free” upgrade/restoration, and let the pool deteriorate (as they have done for the past four years)[]Accept the “free” upgrade/restoration, and allow or solicit maintenance of the pool on an ongoing basis from the same groups that did the restoration[*]Throw up roadblocks so that no benefit is derived for anyone, because the unions don’t get any money from the project[/ul][/li]
And it is not clear how the union is losing business from not doing a project that won’t be done if you have to pay union scale. Whether they do the pool with volunteer work, or not do the pool at all, the unions don’t get paid.
It’s the difference between things you want everyone to know about (“Look! We sponsored a music festival!”) and stuff you would rather not be known (“If we don’t get our cut, no one else gets anything either.”) IYSWIM.
Regards,
Shodan
The city did not approach the volunteers to undercut the unions, the volunteers (who should at least be applauded for showing some civic pride) offered to restore something that they feel has value for the people of the city. That intent was there way before any mention of the unions or insurance. Stealing wages? What wages? If the union can come in with a better deal, then deal…crying about lost wages that weren’t even existent (or offered) in the first place is bullshit. Insurance? Maybe another $500 for the rider needs to be donated as well…another 10%. Maybe a local insurance agent can see if they can be donated.
Taxes as a solution? Where did I hear that before? :rolleyes:
Funny how I’ve read in other threads where posters complain about a lack of volunteerism and donations. I can’t believe that this OP is getting negativity for openly trying to volunteer and donate only to get stonewalled by bureaucracy and special interests. As I’ve said before, and I will say it again…unions are double-edged swords and this is an example of the bad side of unions. It would be totally kewl if they volunteered along side with Ralph’s volunteers and showed some civic pride themselves.
As for the city manager in question: Pull your head outta your ass. Either accept the volunteer work (and ongoing operating costs) or bulldoze dirt over the pool and plant a tree…either way, you are doing something positive for your city’s BLIGHT, not perpetuating it with bureaucracy. That’s ineffective management at best.
Then they should have built the pool ON PRIVATE PROPERTY, for Christ’s sake. If it’s a private endeavour, build your own pool on your own land.
One must assume that the reason the alleged pool has allegedly deteriorated is because the city could not afford the ongoing costs. Perhaps due to a lack of taxes or something, I dunno. I applaud the OP’s alleged sense of civic duty; but he is not thinking it through. A proper sense of civic duty would be a willingness to have his tax dollars help pay for the support of a public pool. Or a public library. Otherwise, he is demonstrating that his only concern is for his pocket, not his community.
I’m a state employee. The maintenance staff filed a grievance against my office because we moved three desks around without getting the guys to do it. HE stood there and watched us and never said that it wasn’t allowed. Then grieved us.
I’m really pro union, but c’mon. sheesh.
Ignoring other questions, does the city even want the pool open? There are greater expenses than the ones involved in this restoration. Insurance, wages, chemicals, etc., it’s at that point where the city has to take over.
What’s the point of cleaning it up if they don’t intend to pump it full of water?
A guy giving up his own time and money to organize and implement the repair of public facilities is demonstrating concern for naught but his pocket?
I agree 100%. If you want a pool, build and pay for one yourself. Don’t coerce your neighbors into paying for one for you.
What the hell is wrong with you people. The guy tried to volunteer his time and effort into fixing a public facility. He ran into stupid bureaucratic problems in doing so. He didn’t do anything wrong and you want to give him crap for his effort.
My guess is that they’re giving him grief for him giving the city grief when all the city was doing was protecting the taxpayer’s nickel. There’s a tad more to a city operating a pool than that involved for an individual on private property and the OP discovered that when he encountered the various obstacles he described.
Yeah, but at some point, there must be a common good worth paying for. What if I don’t have a car? Should I not pay for the upkeep of the roads? What if I don’t read? No money for the library? No kids? Fuck the schools!? I think overall there probably is a good community interest into providing public recreation in the forms of gyms, parks, and pools. Obviously, YMMV.
I jsut wanted to drop in and say that I know plenty of Union carpenters, electricians, etc who do volunteer work for organizations like Habitat For Humanity and Rebuilding Together and other programs like that. It sounds like they got a little miffed because they were not asked.
They’re put in the tough position of either saying “you need to tell all these thoughful volunteer non-union electricians/carpenters/masons etc to go away so we can volunteer to do the work” or they have to force the work to be stopped because they probably have a contract with the city that says anyimprovements to city facilities must be done by union laborers.
Yes, it’s beuracratic BS, but so is a lot of other stuff. I’m sorry it didn’t work out better for you, Ralph, but I also know the union guys need to protect their contracts, etc in a time where their relevance seems to be shrinking.
Do you deliver your own mail? Do you build your own roads? do you haul your own garbage? Do you put out your own fires? Do you have your own jail? Do you fight your own wars? Do you inspect your own meat?
If your answer to any of these questions is no, then you’re all for confiscating taxes from your neighbors. Everything else is just quibbling over how to spend the money. If you want to illegally invade other countries and kill thousands of innocent people, pay for it yourself.
And what if these 20 guys screw it up and the pool needs even more work? What if these guys decide halfway through that it isn’t worth the effort? Can the city sue them? I think the intent is admirable, I am just not so sure it is a good idea.
Okay.
This seems to be what you’re running into:
You’re “stealing” work from the union. What that means is, they have to consistently prove that they’re needed. Nine times out of ten, if you approach the unions about volunteer labor, they’ll do it, because it’s good PR (and yes, they do care about what the public thinks about them) and because it “proves” they’re “needed.”
Are you getting the general gist here? They have to put up a fight because people who aren’t in unions tend to despise them, so they have to prove that they’re still needed.
My union does volunteer stuff all the time - for nonprofits, for kids shows, benefit concerts, etc. But if someone tries to set something up without us we freak out - because we need to prove, somehow, that we’re not useless. And honestly, we aren’t, for the most part. At least, laborers unions. We provide the ability to make a decent wage for something a person has spent a lifetime learning but never went to college for. Sometimes, bullying is the only way to get that done, but usually we’re just trying to make a point.
If the city is under contract with the unions, they have to put up a fight. It’s essentially in the contract. Had you approached the unions saying “this is what we want to do,” they more than likely would have sent some apprentices in to help you, for free, as good PR and on the job training. But you, unknowingly, went around them and there’s nothing that’ll annoy a unionite more than that.
I think that it’s one part assholery, and one part survival instinct on the union side of things. Plus, operating a pool really is expensive. There’s probably a reason the local pool went under, like everyone else said. The pool is there, but refurbishing it isn’t necessarily going to breathe new life into it. I was talking to the manager of our local aquatic facility a few years ago and she told me that the pool actually loses money for the city but it’s so popular that they keep it around anyway - good for votes.
If the reason the pool was closed is budget cuts, it’s not just because it was falling apart - it was because it wasn’t bringing in money. Most public pools are losses.
Edit: I figure it’d be good to mention that I belong to a union for theater and stage technicians. That makes the paragraph about our volunteer work make a little more sense. Haha.
~Tasha
Sure, he tried to volunteer his TIME.
Let’s see if he’s willing to volunteer his money.
Fixing a pool is great. Well done. Now you’ve got a fresh, new pool- THAT NO ONE USES.
Oh, wait, I’m sorry, did you want to OPEN that pool to the public?
Who’s going to insure the work that was done on that pool against negligence suits? ralph124c?
Who’s going to hire the lifeguards to staff it? ralph124c?
Who’s going to pay for regularly scheduled maintenance? ralph124c?
Who’s going to pay for a facilities manager to maintain the water levels, pH levels, groundskeeping, and restrooms? ralph124c?
Who is going to insure the work of those lifeguards and facilities managers, in case a lifeguard blows a save or someone trips on a tree root? ralph124c?
Who is going to drain, refit, and maintain that pool through the winter months? ralph124c?
MOST IMPORTANTLY, who (if nobody steps up to pay for all the incidentals of running a public pool) is going to pay for the brand spanking new ATTRACTIVE NUISANCE that ralph124c and his merry band of Good Samaritans have created? Oh, this is a great question. Let’s see one good answer on this one.
All you idiots that are so quick to jump up and down to decry the unions and pillory those “assholes” who want to keep the pool closed seem awfully willing to spend ralph124c’s money. But I would bet dollars to donuts that if it was a bond item or a tax request on your own ballot, you’d vote it down in a second. Everything is a good idea when someone else is paying for it.
A pool isn’t a stone statue. You don’t just put it up and then leave it alone for all the world to enjoy. It takes work. It takes maintenance. It takes a whole hell of a lot more money than just the market value of six or seven myopic do-gooders and three weekends.
Sometimes, once in a while, Mommy doesn’t let Baby play with the iron. And Baby cries. “Mommy doesn’t want me to have any fun!” And maybe Mommy doesn’t. This time. But Mommy is just making sure that Baby doesn’t horribly disfigure himself. Mommy has the perspective to know that maybe what Baby wants right this minute might just hurt him, and so Mommy, sad as she might be that poor, badly-done-to Baby feels oh, so wronged. does the right thing and trusts that one day Baby will have perspective.
Grow up, Baby. It’s not just a matter of doing a little work.
Yeah! Only the wealthy should be able to enjoy pool swimming on a blistering hot day! The poor don’t need pools to swim in, they’re too busy eking out a living. And that’s as it should be.
And what’s with libraries? If you’re too poor to buy a book, you shouldn’t be reading!