I’m sorry, but is there actual scientific evidence for the “addicted for life” theory? And please don’t show me any AA literature, because they cannot do any unbiased study. Thee percentage of people who stay in AA and stay off alcohol vs. the percentage of people that skip AA and manage some other way cannot be determined if everybody is annonymous, can it?
Also, no matter what you may believe, alcoholism is NOT a desease as defined in science.
AA doesn’t promote religion?? My father-in-law went to a few meetings, and he wasn’t given the option of followed the steps that didn’t mention “God”.
Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.
I have attended AA-related meetings (Alateen and Alanon). I have also seen parts of regular AA meetings. Certainly I am no expert, but I am qualified to report on what I have observed.
You are right that people didn’t “rant and witness.” But, the whole AA method is based on a Christian conception of God. This Christian conception of God was reinforced throughout the proceedings of the meetings.
It is sometimes difficult for American Christians to understand how the world looks from a non-Christian point of view. Many things that seem non-denominational or non-religious are blatantly Christian to the rest of us. American society is so suffused with Christianity that people just accept it as “normal.”
Most American Christians seem only to be able to understand other religions through the lens of Christianity. Even the conception of a “higher power” is very Christian. (Or Judeo-Christian) To me, asking God to remove my shortcomings is about as sensible as asking a tree to remove my shortcomings. It makes no sense.
This is not a criticism of Christianity or Christians. I am simply trying to explain that things look very different from the other side of the fence.
I have been told by several doctors, both in and out of rehab, that addiction is for life. If it is not, why do many people return to their drug of choice so often, even after years of living clean? The impulse NEVER completely leaves an addict. Why do you suppose that alcoholics who no longer drink refer to themselves as “recovering alcoholics?”
One definition of “Disease” is “a particular destructive process in an organ or organism, with a specific cause and characteristic symptons.” From “Websters New World Dictionary of American English.” I think, but am not positive, that the AMA defines alcoholism as a disease. I would be curious to see your definition of “disease, as defined in science.”
AA does not dictate a damn thing. If you find their doctrine helpful, follow it. If you don’t, don’t. Those are the choices.
In all of the meetings I have attended, no one ever told me that if I did not believe in God I would not be able to attend those meetings. No one ever asked me if I did or did not believe in God----any God, not just the Christian version. Soliciting the help of a “higher power” (“God, as we understand him to be”) is recommended. The “higher power” can be anything—free choice, right?
Even the part of one’s brain that was not being used while one was drinking oneself to death.
The purpose of AA is to help alcoholics stop drinking. It works for some and not for others, as is true of many treatments.
If you have no first hand experience, you might consider listening to some who do. As for people who attend AA meetings, find something to object to and never go back, my experience has been that a lot of them were pressured into going in the first place. These people usually do not believe they have a problem, they do not want to stop drinking and have no intention of stopping.
If I did not want to spend time at the SDMB, I could easily find a lot of reasons not to do so. Some posters to this board annoy hell out of me. Others espouse causes and beliefs I have no interest in. But the total is greater than the sum of its parts and so I keep returning. Same thing with AA.
My father-in-law was an atheist, and he told them at the AA meeting that he didn’t believe in “a higher power”. He also told them, when it was pointed out that “a higher power could be anything, even a doorknob!”, that he wasn’t about to pretend something just to soothe their feelings, and would they mind if he called the doorknob “God” every day and prayed to it?
He decided to cut back(NOT quit cold turkey) on his own, and was successful.
I believe telling someone that a single drink is cause to believe yourself a failure, and a reason to start the program all over again, is ultimately self-defeating. There are programs out there that don’t go the “Addicted For Life!” route, and are successful for some. This seems to me to expose the “truth” of AA, that you are addicted for life, deseased forever, for the self-serving lie it is.
Crystalguy, this is the BBQ Pit. People are going to have strong opinions here. You might be exposed to different experiences than what you might be comfortable with. I’m sorry that I didn’t have the same opinion as you.
Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.
My father had pretty much the same experience as Slythe’s father-in-law; maybe he just wandered into a particualarly religious meeting. But it sure turned him off! Oddly, my father had no trouble quitting cigarettes, but he never was able to stop drinking.
Pooch, no need to post sites for me, though others might want them—my father’s been dead five years now, so bringing him to a meeting would not only do him little good, but would doubtless drive many in attendance back to the bottle . . .
Slythe, ask a qualified medical professional if addiction is for life or not. I did and I reported the answers I was given. Let me know what answers you receive.
And I am still waiting for your definition of “disease.”
One drink may not cause a person’s downfall, that is very true. But if one knows oneself to be an alcoholic, taking that one drink is to dice with death.
And I do not regret that your opinion differs from mine. I can report that AA worked for me and so my opinion is that AA is a worthwhile organization.
Green Bean, I’m not a Christian. I hover somewhere between atheism and agnosticism on the theological (or lack of) spectrum. That being said, I think there’s a certain “automatic” intolerance that surfaces with quite a few atheists at any mention of religion in regard to anything. It’s one thing to fight against posting the ten commandments in public schools. That’s a clear violation of the separation of church and state and it’s out and out wrong. But to condemn an organization that’s been around since 1935 in regard to the wording of their principles is absurd. AA states that one doesn’t even need to accept the concept of a higher power to be a member. You’re saying an atheist shouldn’t have to voluntarily tolerate hearing the word “God” a few times, even though it means nothing to him or her? I attended my girlfriend’s Catholic school senior prom and a prayer was held beforehand. I just sat there in respectful silence. I didn’t believe in what was being said and nobody there questioned it. It really wasn’t a big deal. Like I said earlier, people get the most out of AA by being in a social environment with people who have the same problems. It has more to do with empathy and understanding than anything else.
But are you an agnostic/atheist who was raised Christian?
As I said in my earlier post, people who were raised Christian in the U.S. sometimes fail to realize that things that they accept as secular and normal are actually religious. AA is a good case in point.
My point, again, is that the AA principles are Christian-based principles. It is more than just "hearing the word “God” a few times. It is that the whole AA plan depends on one type of belief in a higher power–a very Christian type of belief.
If you are ordered by the court to go to AA, then you are being forced into a Christian group.
And there is a big difference between sitting through a Christian prayer or service, and becoming deeply involved in a Christian program.
I think I am speaking for many people here when I say that I think AA is a wonderful organization that has done inestimable good. I am not criticizing AA. I am criticizing the parties who fail to realize that AA is the wrong program for many people.
By the way, I am not an atheist. I am a Deist who was raised Jewish. I have a strong belief and faith in God.
I believe there is an organization called “rational recovery” for people who have drug/alchohol problems but are turned off by the “higher power” rhetoric in AA, and by the idea that they are powerless over their addiction. I have no idea what their success rate is vs. AA
On the DUI issue, the one problem I have is that forcing someone to attend AA contradicts AA’s premise. Step #1 has to be something you come to voluntarily, if I understand it correctly. A friend of mine had to attend AA as part of DUI probation and felt embarrassed, as though he had crashed a personal and private meeting.
Two explanations for the “How can a Court order you to go to a Christian organization?” question.
First, in my experience, these Orders require the defendants to participate in an alcohol treatment program. They do not specify AA or any other program. Of course, in many areas, this may be the de facto result because nothing else is available. However, the Court’s order is general.
Second, these Orders are generally part of a Probation or Diversion program. A sentence, for instance jail time, is probated if the defendant agrees to comply with the stated terms of the probation agreement. It’s like a contract – if you’ll agree to do these things, we won’t put you in jail. But you don’t have to sign that contract.
In Griffin v. Coughlin, 88 N.Y.2d 674 (1996), New York State’s highest court held that the Department of Corrections could not require inmates to attend 12-step meetings modeled on AA, because the basic thrust of the program was religious and abridged the Establishment Clause. Some representative quotes from the decision:
I just love you ‘experts’ talking out of your assholes about something you know absolutfuckingly nothing about. Pooch,
if you don’t want to go to the meetings don’t go!Do your jail time! You’re so fucking smart that your best thinking got you where you are!! Moron.
And the rest of you freaking phobics worrying about whether AA is a Christian organization. Get a clue!!! This is a Christian country.
CalifBoomer, That statement excludes those who don’t believe in God, don’t believe that God is a “he”, or profess not to have any religion whatsoever.
BTW, this is NOT a “Christian” country.
If you believed that the founding fathers founded this country on their “Christian” principles, you would worship in the manner they did.
You don’t.
Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.
Do you profess to go to church in drab, grey or black clothing? Does your church service last most of the day? Do you refrain from any work on Sunday? When you go to church, is there a proctor that walks up and down the aisle, hitting people with a long stick if it looks as if they aren’t paying enough attention?
I could give examples all day, but most reasonable people can see my point. Unless you belong to a very strict cult, you do not worship as our founding families worshiped.
So tell us: Are you a Puritan, or am I blowing smoke out my ass?
Your first statement is so stupid, that I cannot respond to it.
Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.
Your silliness is common knowledge-no need to dwell upon it.
Please reread the twelve steps and tell us which ones are optional to those who don’t believe in a higher power, or don’t believe that God is a “Him”.
[sarcasm]And your response as to whether or not you worship as the founding fathers did-simply brilliant![/sarcasm]
Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.