Oh, and BTW, Suroshan:
You’re gonna be real surprised when Satan actually shows up to collect.
You’ll remember me telling you this at that moment.
::
The phrase “In God we trust” was not added to American currency until the 1950’s, under the pressure of McCarthyism. It was believed since all Communists were atheists, all atheists must be Communists. The founding fathers had nothing to do with it.
I was off trekking around one of the peninsulas here in Japan. What did you do last week? Drive-by shootings in Liberal neighborhoods? A Road Rage Rally?
As I just finished reading the posts–skimming by CalifBoomer’s while chanting mad dog, mad dog–I’m not sure where to jump in.
As bad as the pit gets, there was always an element of humor that made it fun. I’m going to be unplugging for a while, so maybe I can extricate myself here and make a dubious get-a-way.
Chief Crunch and Crystalguy asked for some personal background and not being one to undermine first hand account I will say that I have been to AA meetings, have been called an alcoholic (and much worse) as well as a functional alcoholic, a problem drinker, an al-CO-holic (likes the company of alcoholics) a funny drunk, a friendly drunk, a common drunk, and a bore (by my drunken friends) because I don’t drink that often anymore.
I am not an alcoholic.
Crystalguy, I do understand ‘the courage and strength required in overcoming a genuine destructive addiction.’ Even more so, I understand the failure of overcoming addiction. Why do you and Chief Crunch feel AA is above criticism? A lot of ex-members (jerks) are crticizing AA. You are absolutely correct that the independent groups each have their own character. I’ve been to a pretty cool meeting, and I’ve been to one (in Texas) where we were asked to pray together. I’m sure that was the exception to the rule.
It is not like I jumped up and shouted "You said the ‘G’ word at meetings. This is my problem with AA: (IMO-Am I covered?) I see AA and Christian ideology running along the exact same line. And, the ideology is an intrinsic part of the AA cure. AA says you are powerless. The message I hear is you can’t go it alone. You can’t save yourself. Christianity stresses salvation through Jesus’ invitation and his personal assistance in achieiving it. You can’t save yourself. It sounds pretty exclusive to me.
God as I know him doesn’t remove my shortcomings or defects of character. Wish he could. A Buddhist would not know what to do with the Steps because he believes in salvation through solitary effort (no, I am not a Buddhist).
I am not powerless, and I don’t think people should believe they are. I believe you can quit drinking, find salvation, and program your VCR through solitary effort. Hey, maybe I am a Buddhist!
Do I really need to remind you that those same founding fathers founded this country on freedom of religion? So again, this may be a Christian predominant society, but that doesn’t make it solely a Christian society.
Thank you for that interesting tidbit, Chief.
But Boomer, your posts are usually so rambling, hate-filled and incoherent that it’s hard to see where your “sarcasm” ends and your “intelligence” begins. But, I will concede that perhaps I misread your statement and missed your intended “humor,” however ill-conceived.
“Ad hominem!” “Straw man!” And several other phrases you seem fond of throwing around. Now answer the fucking question - where is the proof of your statement:
All of psychology addiction counseling is a crock without Jesus?
The burden of proof is on you, dimwit - you say it, you back it up. Ain’t my job to do your work. Since you can’t back it up, expect to be taken to task for making untrue statements.
By the way, for the record, I haven’t stated much in this thread other than my opinions, and certainly nothing as “fact” or “the truth,” so don’t go off on me about not contributing anything worthwhile to the thread - I never claimed to. I’m reading, I’m learning, I’m enjoying, I’m asking questions, and I’m pointing out your idiocy where appropriate. If you say something stupid, somebody’s gonna call you on it.
Alas, this is probably true. Whenever the child gets a sugar rush, it seems there’s no stopping him, and it seems his mother gave him a few extra Choc-O Covered Sugar Bombs ™ at breakfast this morning.
Why do I even bother? Slythe’s points are all valid (as are everyone’s who are engaging in interesting conversation), whether you agree with them or not, and since you have been unable and/or unwilling to support your own opinions or your proclaimed “proof” (other than, “I’m right and you’re wrong so shut up!”), even if I disagree with her, she still comes out shining over you. Believe it or not, I do see your points, but they are posed so abrasively, incoherently and self-righteously that they stand without substance.
Hell, I don’t even remember what we were discussing anymore…
Esprix
CB you said;
Would you care to state your credentials? For example were I to endorse the statement:
( and I do), I do so because I have a *degree[/] in American history.The means I was subjected to a rigorous program of testing my knowledge on a specific subject, and judged competent in it by recognized experts. It does not mean that I consider myself an expert because I happen to own the entire School House Rock series on video, which seems to be about the level of your knowledge. So come on, Skipper, lets see some credentials.
Practical Mysticism & Sobriety
Bill Wilson’s Testimony Before Congress
Alchoholics Anonymous & Psychotherapy
[Recovery from Addiction Without God?](http://www.unhooked.com/sep/persip1.htm#An Alternative View of the Future of Addiction Treatment)
Do what you will with the links. They are informational. Draw your own conclusions.
::
Whoops- try again:
[Recovery From Addiction Without God?](http://www.unhooked.com/sep/persip1.htm#An Alternative View of the Future of Addiction Treatment)
Doppler effect:
The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Fuck a duck!
Recovery From Addiction Without God?
If I don’t get it right this time, just cut and paste.
Doppler effect:
The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
I also screwed up the Jung link (maybe I didn’t quit soon enough)
Doppler effect:
The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
The “Recovery From Addiction Without God” acticle you have cited is a major criticism of AA. It doesn’t support any of your points at all! Did you actually read it?
Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.
slythe:
Yes, I did read it. It presents a secular interpretation supporting AA, from an atheists viewpoint. It’s point is that AA can work [bi]without** God. If you interpret that as a ‘criticism’ perhaps you did not understand it. I am not trying to prove anything to you or anyone else slythe. You asked for information. You got it.
Doppler effect:
The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
slythe:
You could not have read that link. Enough time had not elapsed between my posting and your response for you to read & understand 51 pages. You’ve been Fool Filtered!
Adios, MotherFucker.
Your pal,
Boomer 
Doppler effect:
The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Calif-Fooler, I read all of the links provided. The article describes the faulty science behind AA, the fact that the modern AA has differentiated greatly from what the Big Book had originally proposed, the fact the AA uses the word “disease” in quite a different way than medical science does, the contradictions of a group that both preaches annonymity and yet sets up senior members of local AA meetings as “heroes” to be followed, etc, etc., etc.
There is quite a bit more that the author of the article covered about the problems of AA, but I think I’ve proven my point.
Does somebody else want to read the link he provided and see if I somehow misread this article?
Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.
Boomer, you’re really losing your grip, buddy. First you said:
Here you say psychology without God doesn’t work, and AA works because it uses psychology and God.
But then you say:
So which is it?
Esprix
Anyone but CalifBoomer:
Intelligent, coherent point. Worthy of GD.
CalifBoomer:
Da dar dar dar. [random insults and swears] Fully worthy of the Pit.
So, it looks like everyone but CB is in accords, yes? Shall we call it a day?
Notice how he fully fails to attack my knowledge of logic. Did I get something wrong? He’d only attack it if I were right…
I sold my soul to Satan for a dollar. I got it in the mail.
Personally, I’m all for moving this to the GD. Pooch, you started this thread, what do you think?
Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.
Personally, I’m all for moving this to the GD. Pooch, you started this thread, what do you think?
Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.
That’s probably a good idea. I’m wondering how to reformulate the OP since I don’t really think AA is for pussies. I wasn’t trolling, I was using Pitlish.
Is AA a cult? Can the 12 Steps really be rationalized to fit the needs of the secular alcoholic? Disease or not?
Where shall we take it from here?
I am not averse to continuing this discussion in a more civil forum, however I have some concerns–I would like the purpose of any forthcoming exchange on this issue clarified. To explain: We all understand that there exists a difference of opinion on any number of issues discussed here on the SDMB. Posters speak for and against issues about which they have personal passions. This is a good thing. Some examples might be; SingleDad, who has developed critical thinking skills he uses to filter assertions made by others. David B is passionate about scientific methodology, which he uses as a filter. Esprix posts articulately & intelligently (mostly) from his point of view. It so happens I disagree with all three of them on almost every issue, nonetheless, I respect the integrity of each; they truly believe in the validity of their point of view.
On the other hand, there are those who don’t seem to get the idea of these forums. They are more “form over substance” types. They seem to think it is their job to take a contrarian position simply for the purpose of what they interpret as ‘winning.’ You get the idea they don’t have any fervently held beliefs, only a general antagonism accompanied by a closed mind. You will spend forever chasing the red herrings they toss and get nowhere in the process. Argument for the sake of argument. I’m not interested.
Flame wars in the Pit may be entertaining, but they don’t accomplish much. Semantics wars in GD are equally non productive and dull as hell. If Pooch wants to go to GD, I’m willing, but with April 17th looming, my time is limited.
Doppler effect:
The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Am I the only one who finds this statement ironic?
I wouldn’t mind seeing the subject of AA in Great Debates.
If a new thread were to be started, I would be interested in discussion of the religious end of things–whether it is a “Christian” organization, whether court orders to attend AA are a violation of the separation of church and state, etc. I think questions such as these make us really think about the role of religion in general, and Christianity in particular, in America.
I think it would be wise to mention in the OP that the “effectiveness” of AA is not in question. No doubt it works very well for many people.
Pooch, when the board gets un-crashed, would you like to do the honors? (And I think you should title it “AA is for doggies.” 
)