The 90’s Sound: Nirvana, Alice, Rage, Foos - mixer Andy Wallace (includes music ‘spoilers’)

In this other thread: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=848917 we started talking about the podcast Dissect, but it has evolved into a discussion about Series that break down music or other content in a fact-based, How It’s Made sort of way.

One of the best of these is Rick Beato’s Everything Music. The guy is a music instructor, deep into theory, jazz, etc., so can speak to that, but focuses on stuff non-musos can grasp even if the theory specifics sound like Charlie Brown’s Teacher. He. loves all music and can unpack a Soundgarden or A Perfect Circle Song really well. Thanks to pulykamell for pointing it out.

As part of his video series he has this: **Music Production - Andy Wallace Mixing Techniques. **Music Production - Andy Wallace Mixing Techniques - YouTube

Warning: this is inside baseball. In unpacking how this one, involved-in-EVERY-thing mixer, Andy Wallace, did his thing, you “won’t be able to unhear that” - it’s like learning where Strawberry Fields is sped up, slowed down and chop-edited. If you don’t want to spoil your magic, don’t read stuff like this. Cool?


I knew Andy Wallace was involved in everything. I knew Geffen had him remix Nevermind and that is part of what led Cobain to go with Albini for In Utero. I assumed he was one of THE guys who pioneered the LOUD mix, where everything is compressed into a narrower dynamic range so the entire sound can be pushed up louder. In fact, I thought that was the 90’s sound - that is what defined it, like use of a Chorus, out-of-phase guitars, synths and gated drums defined the 80’s sound.

This is far more revealing. The two big things I picked out were first: Andy Wallace heavily processed the bass after the track was recorded, and he always used a chorused bass sound. Man, once you hear what standard approach he took in adding a specific sound to the bass track after the player recorded it you will hear it in everything. I thought of it as a trend the bassists all followed, not the imposed edict of just one guy.

But the second is even more of a head twist for me: he replaced a track’s actually-recorded drum sounds with the exact same drum sample sounds, across some of the most famous songs we know. Beato toggles between a Rage song and a Linkin Park song and you hear that the snare, kick and toms are the same. Beato also shows how it’s done: with new tech back then, you could use the actual-recorded track’s drum hits to trigger the sample, so its sound was the dominant sound, but fit perfectly with the recorded drum’s timing.

My brain still hurts processing this. I have NO problem enjoying each of my faves from this period - a great song is a great song. But not fully appreciating how deep the connections were - those have been “hiding in plain sight” all this time - and again, now that I hear it, I hear it - that’s the mindfuck for me. It is cool, and interesting, and puts a perspective on the business of music, and it makes me think about how Wallace shaped the sound so he could package it up as loudly as possible. I just had no idea to what extent he did that. This rates a Keanu “Whoa.” in my book.

There should be a documentary to unpack this and include interviews with the various bassists who’s “sound” was not their own. Or drummers who must have had their melons tweaked when they heard “their” drums on the final cut. How was all of this processed behind the scenes while I was consuming each Wallace-mixed bon bon, blithely unaware?

If you knew this stuff, feel free to share, point and giggle. It was news to me.

Too late to edit: I guess my point is that I didn’t know to call what Wallace did “mixing.” To me, “mixing” is shifting levels, adding compression, setting volumes, etc. Mixing is not wholesale reprocessing and/or replacement of sound. Or at least I didn’t think of it that way. More fool me.

I’ve been in a few rooms where mixing was going on and even in the 90s with stone knives and bear skins it was clear a mixer could do a LOT to shape a song beyond the basics. God knows what one could do now.

It also reinforces a sort of heretical belief that I’ve seen gain a bit of traction: Cobain didn’t know what the fuck he was doing. He could write a song that was sort-of listenable but it’s clear that, left to his own devices in terms of production and mixing, he’d been selling 20,000 copies in the northwest. Giving him a real professional to handle mixing - Andy Wallace - and we get Nevermind

I suppose it can raise the Gordon Lish question. Raymond Carver is one of the most highly-regarded, innovative short story writers of the last 50 years, but it turns out his editor, Gordon Lish, dramatically edited much of Carver’s most signature works. Now what? FWIW, to my knowledge, Carver’s works are still taught in writing schools and held up in very high regard.

Also, I saw that documentary produced by Cobain’s daughter, Montage of Heck. His talent is there - but man, he seems like a lost, damaged soul throughout his life.

Also, Andy was a bigger part than I had realized, but producer Butch Vig was critical.

Can argue with you about Vig. But Vig produced Bleach, too, as I recall. The X-factor added to Nevermind was Wallace. Ditto adding Steve Albini for In Utero. There’s a lot to be said for someone who’s a real pro and keeps his eye on the prize.

As for a writer? Never put down a quality editor. It allows a reality check to the author. I’m a very good writer. I have hundreds of thousands of published words. Millions? Who knows? I’ve been in the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal. I’ve written a webcomic for years and had a daily column in a few hundred newspapers. And I desperately need an editor to keep me moving in the right direction. I don’t resent it. I consider it vital.

Oh, wow, that’s really interesting. I was well aware of replacing or beefing up snare or kick sounds using the audio track as a trigger for the samples, but had no idea the exact same sounds were being used across different bands and to this extent. I’ll have to dive into that series next.

Cool post Wordman, this will be fun to check out. It’s topical to what I just watched on Netflix, Hired Gun, that exposes some of the production room sleight of hand that similarly casts doubt on whether ‘your favorite musician’ was really the one laying those sounds down on the vinyl.

Is that the one that slags Billy Joel, hard?

[wrong thread]

Jack Endino produced Bleach.

Maybe you’re confusing in with ‘Gish’, Smashing Pumpkins first album. Butch Vig produced Gish, Nevermind and Siamese Dream.

The X factor in Nevermind was probably the timing. They made a pop abum and it sold. There was a record company change, a market change, some money spent, and some business meetings. They had a specific business plan to be successful with Nevermind, supported by Geffen, whereas with Bleach they were an underground band making a sound for a known audience. This is what makes things happen. Hard to believe that the mixing is important compared to that.

Interestingly enough, while going down the Youtube rabbit hole after watching that Rick Beato video, there’s someone out there who has been reimagining a couple of Nevermind Songs with In Utero (Steve Albini) production, as well as the other way around. It’s actually pretty interesting, as whoever it is that is doing it knows what they’re doing.

I’m not sure what you are saying. It does seem that, at some level, Kurt Cobain wanted Hugeness. He allowed his music to go through The Machine. I hadn’t appreciated what that fully entailed. It would seem Kurt Cobain didn’t, either. The music is amazing - what is fragile Cobain supposed to do with the fact that the music is a processed cheese-food of his damaged life?

At the most basic level Kurt wanted to be a rock star above all other things. It’s not wrong or bad, it’s the way it is for kids, rock and growing up in the US. We all know that. It’s in his notebooks that were unfortunately and unwisely put out.

I was saying that Cobain wrote the newer “popular” songs and participated in the transition from Bleach to Nevermind as the creative mover towards stardom and the industry. It was time for him, and he wrote an LP that was sufficient for that. I don’t think that the mixing had a lot to do with it, except as part of the industry push. Other factors were huge.

Elvis was Elvis, no question. But Sam Phillips cultivated him - hard - and applied his Sun Records sound to him, yes? That is Kurt Cobain, yes? He just chose a shotgun before spiking out on a toilet.

Yep. They don’t present Billy’s side, but it makes him out to be a spiteful diva freezing out his lifelong buddies.

This is the part that just blows my goddamned mind. From my old radio station days recording promos in the production studio, to more recent dicking around with ProTools and the like (personal garbage of my own and pro-quality stuff working with real composers at work), I feel like I at least had some handle on what went on in the mixing process. I guess not, not even close.

I’m not even sure how I feel about this. My immediate gut reaction is to be pissed off. This doesn’t clear the ‘authenticity’ bar I would have railed on as a youth, clutching my Minutemen albums to ward off the evil. I’ve moderated considerably since then, but this still rubs me the wrong way a little.

Part of it might have just been visibility. I think that Nevermind was the first alternative album released after Billboard switched to Nielsen SoundScan. Previous charts didn’t represent sales in independent record stores, so mainstream acts had a better chance of making it into the charts.

Your second link is broken. I assume you meant this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsy2GiXzYYk

These are interesting. You get the gist - Albini had a harsher overall feel; the songs don’t have the same perfect Pop snap to them. I agree that Cobain’s songwriting / sense of melody comes first, but that pop-sweetened mix is a contributing factor.

pork rind - I hear you, but the music still works. One might argue that Wallace’s mix was the final smoothing that got the music across to the masses. True Indie had a (often much) rawer feel. The accessible mix of Wallace’s was the gateway in. So, one could argue, the mix was the way we were able to appreciate something as raw as Rage Against the Machine. Wallace weaponized a Pop mix approach so it could be applied to further-out music.

Just trying to hold this up and look at it from a variety of angles. ???