And now, what about all those cops turning their backs on De Blasio? That’s worthy of a new Pit Thread unto itself. Here 'tis.
Who is this “we” you are referring to? Whom do you represent? Is it the Kim Jong-un Impersonators and Barbershop sextet?
You’re seriously saying that the cops didn’t kill Garner? Saying that doesn’t even condemn their actions – their actions might well have been correct (as others, like Terr, have said, while also saying that the cops killed Garner).
It’s simply a fact that the cops killed Garner.
If the video was identical, but the guys dressed like cops were not actually cops, would you say that those guys killed Garner?
None of this is actually an argument against the assertion that “the cops killed Garner”. If you want to argue that the actions were justified, then that’s fine, and these paragraphs might apply – but I didn’t say the contrary in that post. I simply stated a fact – the cops killed Garner. Their actions may or may not have been justified, but it’s just ludicrous to say that they didn’t kill the man (even though they didn’t intend to).
My emphatic “NO” was directed at your absolutely ridiculous statement:
[QUOTE=iiandyiiii]
…just as if it were a bunch of guys dressed like cops who attacked Garner with identical video.
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As far as whether the cops killed Gardner, they didn’t. A confluence of things came together and resulted in Garner’s death: his health, his resisting arrest, and the actions of the cops to make the arrest. But the actions of the cops were actions that cops in this country take hundreds of times a day without anyone dying. And to point to any one of those factors and say that it is the thing that caused Garner’s death ignores the fact that if any one of them were the only factor, it’s still be alive.
Sorry that the facts deprive you in a faux-righteous chant of: “the cops killed Garner”. I would recommend adopting an infatuation that comports better with reality.
I’ll choose to live in the real world with folks like Terr. In the real world, the cops killed Garner. It doesn’t mean their actions were necessarily wrong, but they definitely killed the man. When a bunch of men accost another man on the street, he yells, they grab him and struggle, and the man dies, then the bunch of men killed the other man. The fact that they’re cops may change the legal circumstances, and it may affect whether their actions are justified, but it doesn’t change the fact that they killed him.
Darren Wilson killed Michael Brown. It doesn’t mean Wilson’s actions were wrong. The cops killed Eric Garner. It doesn’t mean that their actions were wrong. There’s nothing righteous about it – just a willingness to see the facts, like Terr. That’s the real world.
This conversation we’re having is not about whether the cops should be prosecuted or not. It’s just about the question of whether they killed Garner. Obviously they did. It’s ludicrous to claim otherwise. Again (and this question is not about whether the cops were wrong!!!) – if they weren’t cops, but the video was identical, would you disagree that the not-cops killed Garner?
If a fat man is mugged and attacked, and he has a heart attack and dies while being mugged and attacked, we don’t say that a confluence of factors led to his death and that the mugger didn’t kill the fat man. We say that the mugger killed the fat man.
The death was declared a homicide. That by definition means the death was caused by others. And the only people in contention are the cops.
No, you can’t, as overzealous by definition means your zeal was unjustified. That’s why it’s just zealous.
And the protesters have been talking about improper use of force from the beginning, which means they thought they were overzealous in their use of force. A lot of the problem has been that no charges whatsoever were brought.
And he was choked to death, because all that requires is that your oxygen supply is restricted by the actions of someone else. Yes, that’s a loose definition of choke, but one we use all the time. Not getting enough oxygen set off all the other actions that led to the guy’s death.
It really doesn’t seem like you would be with the protesters if they said things the right way, as you appear to be looking for ways they are wrong rather than trying to understand the argument.
That’s bullshit. That would mean there were no intervening choices of action that cause the situation. If he died because he resisted arrest, that would mean resisting arrest inherently causes death in this sort of situation.
He died because, in response to his (barely, just technically) resisting arrest, he was placed in a type of chokehold, thrown to the ground, and his pleas that he was having trouble breathing were not only ignored but compounded by the actions of the cops."
Resisting arrest did result in his death. The cops’ actions resulted in his death.
He had no reasonable expectation that his actions would ultimately lead to a chain of events causing his death. The cops, on the other hand, had a reasonable expectation that he might die, since he told them he couldn’t breathe.
Even fucking Fox News admitted that resisting arrest is not why he died.
I hope some people here aren’t ER doctors. If a patient said “I can’t breathe”, they’d tell him “If you couldn’t breathe you couldn’t say ‘I can’t breathe’. Now get the fuck out of my ER.”
If there were any ER doctors present when Garner was taken to the ground, they would have been able to properly diagnose Garner’s condition. Garner had trouble breathing but it wasn’t because he was being strangled. Garner repeatedly demonstrated that he could talk.
Any ER doctor would have checked Garner’s airway, his pulse (strong, weak, palpitations, etc.), observed Garner’s skin condition (sweaty, bluish, clammy, cold, hot, whatever), observed Garner’s eye dilation (both, neither, one), as well as any other possibility their training would have suggested and they would have reacted according to what they actually observed.
They would not have told Garner to get the fuck of their ER. The paramedics and police did not tell Garner to get the fuck out of their ER, either.
Garner did not die at the scene. Garner was alive when paramedics and officers placed Garner on the stretcher. If Garner had actually died at the scene, his body would not have been moved until after the medical examiner had arrived and allowed the body to be moved.
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What ever happened to “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot”? Didn’t Garner understand the message that the rock and bottle protesters had been shouting all this time? Garner could have chosen to put his hands up, and then allowed the officers to put the bracelets on him. Garner made the decision to resist arrest. Garner made the wrong choice.
That’s exactly right.
Similarly, the actions of the cops—taking him down by the hold around his neck and subduing him on the ground with pressure—didn’t kill him. As I’ve said, those actions are taken routinely by cops without the horrible outcome that befell Garner. To paraphrase: If he died because of the hold and takedown, that would mean that the hold and takedown inherently causes death in this sort of situation.
This contrasts markedly with the death of Michael Brown. The cop did kill Michael Brown. Anyone who suffered the bullets to the ports of the body Brown did would very likely die.
The bottom line in the Garner situation is that it was a confluence of things that caused his death. Trying to say any one of them is the thing that did it is folly.
It doesn’t matter if these actions are taken routinely – in this case they killed someone. If they were muggers dressed like cops, and muggers routinely pull people down to the ground in the same way without killing them, then in this case it’s still correct to say that the muggers killed the guy. It’s the same if they’re cops. They accosted him, he yelled, they grabbed him, he resisted, they wrestled him to the ground, and he died. They killed him. Terr is right and you are wrong. He is being reasonable and you are not. Saying they killed him doesn’t condemn or indict them in any way whatsoever – it’s simply being accurate. It’d be accurate if they weren’t cops, right? It’s also accurate if they are cops. Being cops doesn’t mean the word “kill” is defined differently.
By this logic, if a mugger tries to take a fat old man’s wallet, and he resists, and the mugger pulls him to the ground and the fat old man dies, then you wouldn’t say that the mugger killed the fat old man.
Did or did not Garner’s asthma contribute to his death?
Did or did not did his obesity contribute to his death?
Possibly/probably for both. And the same would go for the hypothetical fat old man who died after being attacked by muggers and resisting. In both cases, we would say that the man was killed by others – cops for Garner, muggers for my hypothetical fat old man.
Are you guys still wasting hampster power on the debate of who or what killed Garner?
Come on the facts are pretty clear. Garner was a known career violent criminal, who was out on bail. He resisted arrest. That caused the cops to take him down. That caused his death (exacerbated by his poor health). Yes, the police then were the proximate cause of his death, no doubt. However, there were many factors which led to this tragedy, and many of those factors can be laid at the feet of Garner.
So- given those facts: should those police officers be convicted of murdering Garner*? Does* anyone* here think so?
Does anyone here think Garner deserved to die?
It was a tragedy. Yes, if the Police had known everything or were more conscientious they could have been more careful with the take down. But they didnt know. They didnt kill him on purpose.
- it does appear that one cop is getting penalized by the force.
Bolding mine. Cite for this claim? According to most sources, the majority of his arrests were for selling loosies.
(bolding mine)
That’s the point of contention about whether the cops acted properly, I think – should police be legally obligated to be more conscientious than they were in this case? I think they probably should be.
I guess that’s why the coroner ruled it a “homicide that’s actually the victim’s fault.”