There is so much angst today that Trump is destroying our “democracy” with his claims of fraud casting doubt on our elections being legitimate, and his calling the press the enemy of the people, and that government institutions can’t be trusted, and that he has planted a seed that will end this country as we now know it. That he is going to insprire some popular uprising.
He is not doing anything that hasn’t been done before. It’s not the first time that the losing side challenged the results of the election, you only have to go back to Gore v Bush. Now in that case I firmly believe that SCOTUS was wrong, and tens of millons of Americans still believe that. It didn’t end our system.
Many on the left still believe that Trump only won in 2016 because of Putin. There is a case to be made that Kennedy beat Nixon in 1960 because of voter fraud, was it in Texas or Chicago? I don’t know if it is a legitimate case, it’s been years since I have read about it. Doesn’t matter, millions of voters believed it. The difference is that Nixon, “for the good of the country”, didn’t contest it. Probably because he knew he would lose. But if he had contested it and lost, the country would have just kept on keeping on.
In 1876, Rutherford v Hayes, there was definitely fraud going on. It went to the House, many thought their guy had been cheated, the country kept on keeping on. As it will when Trump is just a bad memory, which I still believe is going to happen very quickly.
I saw a headline today, didn’t read the story, saying that Trump was the front runner for 2024. Yeah, right now it may be true, in 6 months I don’t see the whiny little bitch getting much support, because he won’t have a platform to run on other than “drain the swamp”. He’ll have no policies, no plan.
“Challenging the results of the election” is not the issue people are worried about. In fact, you basically enumerated the difference with your opening paragraph when you listed the things people in this thread are worried about.
Gore wanted to wait for recounts that would be crucial in determining the winner, and indeed, are already a formal part of the election process. Trump, based on nothing, wants to overturn the results of several states and millions of voters, while making baseless and incendiary claims. He’s fighting the election process.
These things are not the same.
Perhaps many people believe the lizard men are among us? I haven’t met any, nor have I met anyone who thinks the 2016 election was stolen. And I am not aware of any political leaders pushing that line either. So again, no, not the same as the president and his cronies actively trying to overturn an election.
Just to clarify: I agree with the US intelligence agencies and the evidence presented, that Russia interfered. However, I would not make the claim (nor have I heard the claim, except as a straw man), that sans election interference Hillary would have won.
You talk about my first paragraph but missed the main point - "There is so much angst today that Trump is destroying our “democracy”. He is not, anymore than the lizard people have or will. I don’t know where you live, I know a few people and have read about many more, on the left, who do believe the 2016 election was stolen. And that Bush and Cheny were behind 9/11. There is a QAnon equivalent on the left. A crucial difference is that there aren’t any in Congress, at least we have that
To take my literal words, that this is nothing new, well yeah it is new, no defeated candidate has ever said in American history that he lost because of fraud. Well, mabye Rutherford did. I am not saying that what Trump doing is the same thing, on the merits, as contesting the 2000 election. It is not, he has nothing , no evidence whatsoever, I am saying in the long run it doesn’t make any fucking difference, and that millions of people in the past have believed that the President was not legitimate . So what? But challenging the results of the election are exactly what people are concerned about, that is why this thread is called The American Coup. One that has no chance now, nor did it ever have, of being successful.
I think that there are two important differences between 2016 and 2020:
We know that Russia attempted to interfere with the election in 2016; the U.S. intelligence community has confirmed this. They were successful in pulling off a lot of shenanigans on social media; their efforts to hack into the voting systems themselves weren’t effective in changing the vote, as I understand it. OTOH, the claims of “massive widespread voter fraud” made by Trump and his supporters in 2020 have been made with zero verifiable evidence to back them up, and have been roundly rejected – often with extremely strong language – by the courts.
I have no doubt that there are Democrats who believe that the Russians helped Trump to “steal” the election in 2016. But, I believe that most Democrats understand that, though the Russians did try to influence the election, we’ll never actually know if what they did had enough of an impact in the swing states to make a difference in the results; the Democrats who are convinced that the 2016 election was stolen, and in the other conspiracy theories you mention, are on the fringe. OTOH, as of last week, only 28% of Republicans feel that the 2020 election was free and fair, and only 30% of Republicans have at least some trust in the U.S. election system (source).
That last point is a pretty danged big deal, IMO, and it is what we’re talking about, when we talk about lasting harm to the country. Liberals have conspiracy theorists, too, but on the GOP side, the fringe has become the mainstream.
The point is, he’s trying to destroy our democracy. And that many republicans are endorsing that to one level or another, and the majority of republican voters, due to misinformation, are on board too.
That’s hella serious, and not the same as anything in modern history.
Exactly, so not the same at all. You can find people that believe anything, even lizard men.
Hearing a president say it, congressmen, state AGs, America’s most popular news agency and a majority of republican voters is just not the same thing at all.
Because the difference matters in terms of the remaining integrity of various government agencies, the faith the american public have in those institutions and the voting process and other events such as violence in the streets and further social division. The difference between a few random bloggers and much of the government contesting something is night and day.
No, most people are concerned about the effects of an attempted coup, some of which have already transpired. In fact, has anyone expressed the view that a coup would be successful? The closest I can find is a couple of posts that ask the question.
I will make that claim. See, the election was that close. Mind you, experts agree that the Comey Memo was #1. Poor election strategy is more or less tied with Russian interference. Those are the big three.
But the election was so close that any one of those things being removed would likely have won it for Hillary.
However, just because Russian interference was one of the things that lost it for Hillary doesnt mean the “election was stolen”. Dirty tricks are part of a election. They dont mean the election was stolen, just dirty. Now, the Russians apparently tried to hack into some voting machine systems- but failed. THAT would mean a stolen election.
The, ‘America will just keep on…’ idea kinda goes both ways, though, I think! What if they somehow manage it?
Truth is America IS likely to just ‘keep on’, as the world saw it do after each and every appalling antic this Pres pulled. From walking out of interviews, literally pushing another world leader aside, and endless lying and misrepresentations, etc, etc. A new low everyday.
The world won’t be surprised to see America just ‘keeping on’ after they’ve lost their democracy to an orange autocrat.
This thread moves pretty fast and more than once I’ve just jumped over 10 or 30 posts unread just to keep up. Which sometimes comes back to bite me. Oops.
Republicans in Congress are now suing in order to grant Mike Pence the exclusive power to overturn the election by refusing to accept the electoral votes of states that he doesn’t want counted. They are claiming that this is a Constitutional power that the vice president has. Which is interesting considering we’ve gone a few hundred years without anyone noticing this power which Al Gore probably might have wanted to know about.
God damn, somehow I knew this would be a Louie Gohmert idea before I even opened the link. Between him and Paxton, this whole sorry debacle is showcasing the absolute worst people my state has to offer.
I came in here to post about this (Gohmert suing Pence). I think now we know why Pence is hiding out in the mountains of Colorado until after New Year’s.
I think that you have the analogy backwards. The idea is that you are moving them so that they are where you are kicking the ball, not that you are moving them to prevent the other person from scoring.
And I would say that from going from “No one is doing this” to “no one important is doing this” to “No one who can actually singlehandedly overturn the election is doing this” is a fine example of goalpost moving.
