You know, it would probably rankle many a Syrian’s ass to have to follow the maid Joan of Al Suwar into battle. So there’s hope to be had on that front, at least 
Obviously, part of the plan would be to convert them to baseball and American football.
Not to defend colonialism ( nor to condemn it, it was just a thing ), but in the case of Hong Kong it wasn’t an ancient people * brutally held down with guns ** stopped from doing their own thing ***. Quite a lot of Chinese, throughout all the Imperial Chinese, Warlord and Communist times, actively decided to live there.
There are few immigrants struggling to get to Syria at the moment.
( Maybe a few masochists. )
- About 7,500 in the 1840s now 7+ million.
** Maybe held down with gins.
*** Making money would be quite high on the Hong Kong list.
Let’s not get too hung up on Hong Kong. Colonizing Syria and the Levant is not meant to be an imitation of Hong Kong. I’m talking about conquering the place, with guns, and stopping them from doing their thing, since doing their thing seems to be destroying all vestiges of history prior to the 7th century while torturously persecuting everyone who doesn’t go along.
If we go in there and kill the militants and topple their leaders, then leave, I think we will end up in much the same situation we’re in today. The underlying worldview won’t have changed, as history shows. It will take generations for the script to sink in that Return to 7th Century —> become the colony of a more advanced state. If people quit blowing shit up, maybe eventually it can become a benign colony. After 99 years, depending on circumstances, we give them another chance.
There are practical problems to address. But if people really want to “do something” militarily about ISIS, and don’t want to be disappointed with the lousy results later, they should know in advance what it is going to take.
I don’t think ISIS is an existential threat to the US. They are kind of a threat to our friends and trading partners, and it could get worse. They’re certainly a threat to anyone within their reach. I don’t know how likely it is that they could get a nuke- if they do, we’ve all got real problems.
But again, the notion that we should “do something”, militarily, about ISIS is kind of in the air. Don’t you hear the suggestion made by candidates, politicians and talking heads? If we go that route we should do it right, acknowledging that the real underlying problem is deeply set.
I won’t even bother addressing the moral or ethical aspects or right or wrong, even beyond that this is insane to put it mildly.
The money and resources alone would bankrupt the USA, the entire GNP would be going towards occupying and controlling an area on the other side of the globe.
The manpower needed would be astronomical, millions of soldiers and colonial police at the very least. Where will these people come from? you’d need to have a draft, how do you think millions of Americans and their families back home will feel about being forcibly sent to a relative hell hole to violently dominate people they share no culture or language with, with the of course astronomical death toll from these people resisting this domination?
You’d have to move and house millions of dependents alone to avoid absolute despair, they will likely accept no less then living in a controlled and cordoned off Little America of which there will need to be tens of thousands. They will have no desire to integrate into the society they are dominating.
i’m even ignoring how politically impossible this would be, or has the vote been suspended too because otherwise the party with 100 percent of the vote in the next election will be the get our people the fuck out of there party. Not to mention the entire middle east turning against this, and disaffected middle eastern young men finding the perfect call in violently opposing this with good reason.
Insane and disastrous.
I think it is immoral to start a war without a plan for success. If people want a military solution, it has to be a successful one.
This is hyperbole. In the long run, the colony might even pay for itself, and then some.
It is going to be tough to get Americans in touch with their backbones in the way they were during the frontier days. I bet a domestic propaganda campaign linking the lawless, up-for-grabs territory in the Middle East with the old American West will revive all kinds of cowboy impulses, and tap into the uniquely American vitality that Providence provides only to us.
Not at first. After 99 years, it would become routine. There aren’t any easy answers, and we have to confront that fact.
Politically, it is problematic. We would certainly want to court and highlight Israel’s support. Maybe there is a way to amend out own constitution such that we must colonize Syria and the Levant for at least 99 years, binding on future administrations, but with enough opposition I admit even that could be undone. Or, maybe a simply treaty would bind future administrations, being like an egg that you can’t unscramble. But if people really understood, I think the political difficulties could be overcome. It’s precedented, Bush invaded Iraq without even an articulated model of success.
What’s insane and disastrous is military action without a clear objective and vision of success. If the path to victory isn’t clear, wtf are you doing?
Doesn’t anyone read history books any more? It’s been tried. Doesn’t work. For the world’s (currently) dominant nation state to attempt to abolish the concept of the nation state in a region where the predominant threat to peace is an attempt to create a theocratic state spanning a whole range of local and national interests is pure fantasy. This isn’t a board game.
Using the US military to solve the problems of Syria is using the wrong tool for the job. All the military can do is destroy. That is what they do. They lay down suppressive fire, call in airstrikes and artillery, rumble down the block in tanks, kick in doors, et cetera. This is not how you fix a nation. If we suppose that the US had the best of intentions when invading Afghanistan and Iraq and always tried to do the right thing at all times (which they didn’t but for the purposes of the hypothetical…) their attempts at nation building in both countries were still abject failures. The US military undoubtedly learned some powerful lessons about urban combat and counterinsurgency. But this only makes them better at destroying things in the future. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a military manual out there with a section on nation building consisting of one word only: don’t.
If the objective is simply “you in your corner and you in yours” then you have to be able to distinguish one side from the other. And my understanding of the Syrian conflict is that it is not that simple. There are many people fighting for many different reasons and they are not extending the courtesy of wearing distinct uniforms so that they may be specifically targeted. So if the goal is to simply make the local populace so disgusted by the fighting that they voluntarily stop… Well, you’d need to execute people at random, blow up monuments that they fight over, enforce every law with maximum severity, force conscriptions and “marriages” and make it absolutely, unambiguously clear that you and only you are in charge.
Wait a minute, aren’t there some dudes over there doing that already?
Very true. However that gives way to a better solution. How about America forming a Peace Army ? Completely unarmed, except for one of their most cherished gifts, 'Moral 'Suasion’; drafted from righteous young college students and feminists of all ages, along with the seasoned arguers of the right-wing Foundations and assorted hacks, filled with happy beliefs of complete equality and political correctness, sent over to lecture and lead the benighted heathen to Democracy and The American Way — but crucially, without Democracy’s violent argument: bombing the shit out of people.
They will lead by example, not by fear and neither by bribes — such with the Peace Corps. They will simply live amongst all people, talking incessantly, and showing them there is a better way, a heaven easily obtained, simply by giving up all their stupid retrograde beliefs and choosing the ballot box instead of the gun. They can give lectures, carry out model mock elections, and promote Atheism ( so they are not seen as Christian expansionists ), the Free Market and Hollywood films.
99 Years may not be enough, but America is up to producing a new batch of 100,000 every year.
The most important thing is that they will be completely unarmed and Over There.
Well, I explored the idea of dealing with ISIS by changing us instead of them in The non-judgment of ISIS thread. I tried to imagine how it would be if we just forgave them, or at least put them in context and let go of our feelings about them. I attempted to find utility in religious ideas since we are dealing with religious fanatics, but the results were mixed at best on that score. People didn’t seem to like the idea on average, but then again that idea got more support than ‘colonize Syria and the Levant for 99 years’ is getting.
I don’t think the Peace Corps can go to Syria or West Iraq, though. If they don’t get captured and beheaded on TV, something awful will happen and they won’t come back. They’re infidels for sure. OTOH, a conquering army of the cowboys of Providence could go in there, kick ass, take names, and plant the Stars & Stripes in Damascus. We could tare the security level by what needs to be done to insure that the Peace Corps can go in and out of there unmolested.
They said that about the Iraq War, too. :dubious:
What’s insane and disastrous is military action based on jingoistic nonsense right out of a John Wayne movie. “linking the lawless, up-for-grabs territory in the Middle East with the old American West” - REALLY? :smack:
Well, again, look what we’re up against:
Their motives are a result of (and intended to destroy) long-term historical trends. If you want an American military solution to ISIS that doesn’t result in an endless procession of armed conflicts, it has to create its own, contrary historical trend. If ISIS ‘fills the vacuum left by decaying nationalist ideologies’, only filling the vacuum left by ISIS after we defeat them can create a new historical narrative, or ‘create new post-caliphate memories’, or ‘build a pathway to American domination as a direct, propagandically-enforced unforgettable result of the self-proclaimed caliphate’, to mimic that way of speaking. This doesn’t happen quickly, but rather would take generations to accomplish, as the wholesale destruction of historical memory leaves behind quite a vacuum.
And the winner of the 2015 World Euphemism Championship is…
It was gracious of you to provide this hint when nobody picked up on the nature of your Modest Proposal.
Ha ha. Not even ISIS would suggest eating children!
But seriously, notice how not one alternative military strategy/definition of success has been drawn out (unless you count ‘do nothing’).
Sherman would know what to do.
[QUOTE=William Tecumseh Sherman]
Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=William Tecumseh Sherman]
If they want eternal war, well and good; we accept the issue, and will dispossess them and put our friends in their place. I know thousands and millions of good people who at simple notice would come to North Alabama and accept the elegant houses and plantations there. If the people of Huntsville think different, let them persist in war three years longer, and then they will not be consulted. Three years ago by a little reflection and patience they could have had a hundred years of peace and prosperity, but they preferred war; very well. Last year they could have saved their slaves, but now it is too late.
All the powers of earth cannot restore to them their slaves, any more than their dead grandfathers. Next year their lands will be taken, for in war we can take them, and rightfully, too, and in another year they may beg in vain for their lives. A people who will persevere in war beyond a certain limit ought to know the consequences. Many, many peoples with less pertinacity have been wiped out of national existence
[/QUOTE]
.
Maybe it’s a reference to the 99 names of God according to Islamic tradition.
The stars are going out.