The Americans Season 3

Cafe Society
541

Beg to differ. Carter’s diplomacy over the four years of his term was a disaster in almost every respect. He was personally reassured by Brezhnev over the phone that the USSR had no intention of invading Afghanistan, and he was stupid enough to believe it.

What measures he could have taken after the fact in 1980 are debatable, but he did nothing beforehand that might have altered Soviet behavior. This is not impossible; Nixon did it very well when he was in office.

Of course, the general situation had changed susbtantially by the time 1979 rolled around. The American military was in a sad state, and official policy blew hot one day and cold the next. The coercive power at Carter’s fingertips was still considerable, however, and he did nothing to exercise it.

The issue is a complex one, and the desirablity of arming the Afghans is a whole 'nother matter entirely. But I cannot imagine anyone less capable of dealing with the Sovs than Carter.

542

That hoary old cliche needs to be retired ASAP. Its not even close to true. The Taliban had some veterans of the resistance, Mullah Omer himself is one example. But for the most part, the movement which became the Taliban was composed of people who had grown up in the 1980’s, in other words the people who were too young to fight originally in the 1980’s. The hint is in the name, Taliban, meaning roughly “students”.

The Taliban arose in the mid 1990’s as a response to the breakdown and infighting of the Mujahideen factions, the Mujahiden became the Northern Alliance, whom the US is still best of buds with.

543

So the question remains…can this method of recruiting Paige ever be completely successful?

I brought up the political tenor of the times because it seems to be that Paige would have to make a pretty hard political left turn for this to go The Center’s/E’s way. She’s eventually going to have to be convinced that her native country is the enemy.

I remember the “No Nukes” era well. There was even a rock concert to promote it. Paige becoming a no-nuke protester is one thing…to work for the KGB is quite another.

The only other option I can see is perhaps P and E never fully come clean. Maybe they ride this whole social justice thing out, get Paige to work for the govt. and then use whatever intel they can get, but this doesn’t seem plausible either. Paige would have to know, correct?

Finally, while it’s impossible for P and E to know presently, the reality is that the clock is in fact ticking on the USSR, and it would take too long for plan B to unfold. The Soviet Union will be gone by the time Paige has reached the point where she can be of full use.

Plus, would a no-nukes protester even want to work for the FBI or CIA?

Who knows?

544

It is tempting for people who create fictional representations of earlier eras to make their characters more savvy than they really could have been, giving them insight into the future that they genuinely wouldn’t have had. So far I’ve been impressed that The Americans has avoided this pitfall for the most part. In 1982, no one would have predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union within a decade. And the characters really exist in a world that assumes the Soviet Union will exist forever (or at least for the foreseeable future). I appreciate that element of the series.

(Not really a response to any message here, just some random thoughts.)

545

It seems to me that if and when Paige ever learns a few small pieces of the truth, she will stop dead in her tracks and try to assess things. This will take her some time - at least a few hours and more likely a few days. She will want and need to look back at the events in her life - all the way back - right to her earliest memories. She will want to think about every event she can remember and ask herself where her parents were at that time, what role they played in those events and what relation that had to the Center. In addition, she will want to think about what relation the Center had to those events. At least, that is how I would feel about things. I think I’d need at least a few days and wouldn’t want to even see either of my parents during that time.

This may sound silly. But I’m quite certain that Paige will need to spend the time required to think through all those events. She will want to understand just what role her parents played and how they were related to the Party, the Center and the Soviet Union.

Paige has been presented to us as a very careful and methodical thinker with a very strong, intelligent mind. IMO, she will want to understand just what role her parents played in every event she can remember.

If you doubt any of this, just ask yourself how you would want to think about the day your parents took you on this very strange “vacation” that you now clearly understand was no vacation at all - but rather some kind of “hideout” or “crash out”. Ask yourself just how much of the truth you would be able to work out when going over the details of that day.

If you are willing to do that, don’t you think that you would want to go over every single detail to try and understand just how and why your parents acted the way they did and what that meant to you?

It is only after reviewing all those events and trying to understand what P&E’s actions meant wrt to Paige that she will be in any kind of position to understand how she feels about the idea of working for “The Party”. Somehow, I think she would recoil in revulsion. But that is up to the show runners. It is entirely their decision.

I am not at all certain that I’m right about that. So, let me stop and ask you whether you agree or not. Would Paige stop in her tracks and review most every event in her life to try to understand just who her parents truly are?

After all, I recall E saying to P, "At least she will understand **who she is’. **But surely E must realize that Paige will also need to understand just who her parents are.

No matter how clever Paige is, I would guess she will need to spend a few days sorting things out before she will even want to talk about any of this.

546

And what did tough boy Reagan do to alter Soviet behavior toward Poland in the early 80s? Posturing. That is all. When the Russians interfere criminally with a country on their own border, there is little to nothing the US can do to stop it. Claiming Nixon or Reagan would have torched the world over it is nonsense. The Russians will never, ever let anything like the Nazis happen to them again. One in four Russians were killed during that war. Only Jews suffered higher percentages of deaths. What can be accomplished with the Russian mindset is that their buffer zone mentality and preemptive aggression can be used to isolate them to an extent and remind people of their ambitions to an empire of buffer states.

547

I’m quite certain the Russians (as well as any nation with nuclear weapons) will never let what happened to them in WW2 by the Nazis, happen again. They will push the button before they ever let that happen and … can you blame them?

If you lived in a country that possessed nuclear weapons and you were faced with the prospect of having one quarter of your population tortured to death, would you allow that to happen? Or would you press the button before you allowed that to happen?

I would guess the answer would be a resounding ‘YES’ for anyone who was asked and who would give an honest answer.

I once met a rep from the Israeli govt. and I’d love to tell you what he told me. But I’d honestly be far too fearful to ever do that.

I know that one quarter of the Russians were not tortured to death - although any Russian who wound up in a prison camp would have been effectively tortured to death - at least starved to death.

Ack! I won’t have enough time to finish what I want to say before the editor time will run out. Sigh!

548

Oh well. I once met with a rep of the Israeli govt and he looked me in the eye and told me, “I absolutely guarantee you that what happened to the Jews in WW2 will never happen again.”

There was no need for him to say anything else. I knew what that meant. And I wouldn’t blame Israel one bit if they were ever …

Ack! If I finish this post, this thread may very well go way off track and never come back. So I will not finish this post and if anyone wants to start a new thread, i will just stay out of it because I’d be far too fearful to participate.

This thread is just about the only thread in which I participate and after some recent experiences, I think I will make a very concerted effort not to post in any other threads. I just love this show too much not to post about it.

549

I don’t think that the Russians would push the button. There are at least two occasions that they did not when they might have thought they were under nuclear attack. They are not going to be caught with their pants down and they will be prepared and ready to fight if they are under attack and they will dish out better more than they receive. But they aren’t going to do that halfway around the world. They didn’t start WWIII over Cuba, even though they came very close.

The Israelis would no doubt kill anyone they thought would be a threat to them. They do it frequently. I get why they have that mentality, but I don’t agree with it. I applaud that they kidnapped Eichmann. I think murdering Gerald Bull was idiotic and criminal.

550

Excuse me? Where did I say that either Nixon or Reagan threatened to “torch the world”?

A great deal went on behind the scenes that involved neither posturing nor overt use of military force. There were other, far more subtle ways of dealing with things like Poland and Afghanistan: economic sanctions and diplomatic pressure, cracking down on Soviet spy rings in the US and allied countries, and clandestine support for movements like Solidarity (whose greatest weapon was the fax machine), to name a few.

It’s hard to see how the invasion of Poland in any way prevented the Soviet people from suffering like they did in WWII. Whatever their mindset and our odds of ever altering it, they can and should be reminded of the consequences of such actions before they take them.

To sit back and say “There’s nothing we can do; if they want to annex a neighboring country, we’ll just have to let them!” is utter nonsense.

551

So in the early 1980s when the Soviets invaded Poland, how did St. Ronnie stop them? Or in 1956, how did Eisenhower and Dulles stop the Soviets from invading Hungary? Please, enlighten us on these methods.

552

iRonically, there’s a statue of St. Ronnie the do-nothinger in Warsaw.

553

Maybe if you ask me nicely I’ll be willing to continue this, uhm, dialogue. So long as you continue to rant in this fashion, I won’t. I’m not in the habit of bouncing marbles off concrete sidewalks.

Sorry!

554

Is it on fire? (my feeble attempt at a joke)

:slight_smile: :stuck_out_tongue: :smack:

Please excuse the above smack attack. I had never seen one before and I thought that including one might help change the subject. I guess that I just don’t understand how these things work.

555

Chaika wrote: In 1982, no one would have predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union within a decade.

Well, I’d recommend reading, if you can find it, an article called “The Taming of the Bear” by Norman Spinrad. (Yes, the SF writer.) Written before either Reagan or Gorbachev came to power while not predicting the collapse of the Soviet Union at least its loss of “world power” status.

One prediction that it did get on the money was the US/Russia collaboration in space with our Shuttles and their space stations technology.

556

**This book **was laughed at by a great many people when it came out, but it’s still worth reading today:

I wasn’t aware of the fate of the author. Again, scary! :eek:

557

You’re really going to chastise people for ranting?

I’m sure you think all that passes for objective analysis. :rolleyes:

558

Uhmmmm … yeah. :smiley:

559

Damn your reasonableness. :mad:

What year is it now on the show? 1984? Andropov came to power in November of 1982, but I can’t remember which episode featured the painting swap in the Soviet embassy. The Gorbachev era can’t be too far off regardless, which will be interesting if the show can last long enough.

560

Ol’ bushy-browed Leonid died in November 1982, when Yuri took control (which we saw this season with the quick portrait swap. Not sure how much time has passed in-show since then). Then in April 1984, Chernenko ran out his life as the General Secretary. In their infinite wisdom, in November 1985, the Sovs (love that nick) went young, and got Mr. Gorbachev-tear-down-this-wall.

I’d hope the show can last that long.