I’m enjoying the evolution of Poor Martha. The interaction with Stan was great and she had some quality scenes with Phil-Clark. I like that she is more actively involved now and I can’t wait to see how far they will end up having her go.
I definitely got that feeling after the “this season on” trailer. I am pretty excited to see how a lot of these stories play out over Season 4.
The folks in charge are leaning towards 5 or 6 seasons to wrap things up.
The point is simple…I think some are making excuses for Martha. Regardless of the original reason, I suspect her first act of giving P/C information was something she could have been charged for.
She should have said no.
I enjoyed this episode but think it obvious that whilst there is still a plan to get a 5th and possibly 6th season out of The Americans, the blocks are starting to fall into place for how Phillip and Elizabeth might finally get caught.
The Paige storyline with the reveal to Tim at the end of last season is one thread.
They planted the seed of Phillip being “caught” in some fashion with Susan part way through Season 3 (looking at how interested she was in him continuing to be at EST last season, it seemed pretty clear to me that they were either setting him up for a real affair, driving a wedge between him and Stan and Elizabeth or putting it more in the area that they have done now, where there is enough for Stan to fall out with Phillip). Now Stan has a reason to fall out with Phillip, he might well open his eyes more to where he’s going and what he’s doing. Especially if he’s still hung up on his ex-wife.
Phillip’s psychological issues have continued to play out and are another possibility for how this falls apart for them.
Martha is another potential weak spot for obvious reasons; if pushed too far, she might give up Phillip.
The writers have given themselves a number of options - mostly revolving around Phillip’s storylines, which ties back into Season 1’s storylines about him being less ideologically pure than Elizabeth (and - possibly more subconsciously - open to error as a result)- any combination of which could be brought into play to bring them down. I hope that they keep it tight from here on out - the one criticism I have is that some of these storylines have taken years and are grounded in what the characters are like - the Stan/Phillip/Susan one though, I feel, has ground a few gears to get into place. When the show is at it’s best, it doesn’t do this.
Pssst… the character is “Sandra”. Susan is the actress.
I really hope P & E get home away when the time comes.
Good catch.
I’m intrigued as to how they will end the series. It would be great if whatever happens, happens so that no-one except those involved know that it happened - if you catch my drift. A big public outing or shootout would take away from the sense of realism that they’ve built up, weaving in the real life speeches and events throughout the series. Whether they leave, defect, sink back under cover when Yeltsin takes over or get killed, I’d like it to be quiet.
One of the main points this series makes is that ordinary people are vulnerable to emotional manipulation. The spies don’t need to look for individuals who are so pathological as to have been “flagged as vulnerable”–they find vulnerability in average people just going about their business. Normal, absolutely typical people will respond to flattery, appeals to patriotism, appeals to their pride, etc. etc.
This point is made over and over again; it’s a hallmark of the show.
Agree with all of this.
I’ve read interviews with the showrunners who say there are real life examples of people who were duped into marrying spies, and they didn’t suspect a thing for years. There’s no doubt Martha’s made foolish choices and continues to lie to herself…but there really is no limit to the stupid things people do when they’re in love and have nowhere else to turn for protection.
So E2 is called “Pastor Tim” and is also written by the show runners.
Might be one to catch …
I feel like I’m either belaboring a point or being unnecessarily harsh towards you, but I still don’t think that you’re understanding what everyone else is saying.
Martha made a number of dumb mistakes, and clearly violated a bunch of laws, starting from the moment that she started telling Clarke secrets without fulling verifying his credentials, or what have you. But she did so for entirely understandable and even sympathetic reasons, and the fact that she was such easy prey for those reasons was why Philip, who is damn good at what he does, chose her to manipulate in the first place.
You keep using language like “making excuses for”, and talking about how Elizabeth has no honor, as if we have to decide whether each character is A GOOD GUY or A BAD GUY, and you have decided that both Martha and Elizabeth are BAD GUYS and are upset that not everyone agrees. Martha and Elizabeth, while very very different characters, are both complex and multidimensional, and there are some generally positive traits about each of them, and some generally negative traits about each of them. Do you disagree with that?
I agree with you that there’s nuance to these characters, which is a good thing in a show about adults. Some of the criticisms seem to be coming from a more childlike perspective with an overly simplistic black and white view of the world.
Consider the talk about honor, for example, where it’s claimed that Elizabeth can’t have honor because she’s done bad things, with the implication that honor is universally good. Honor is anything but universally good. Search “honor killings” to see how a seemingly good concept can go horribly wrong.
Indeed, we’re not watching The Walking Dead or some caped super hero here.
No need to feel that way at all, and no offense taken…and I’m not upset in the least if someone disagrees. After all, this is a fictional show, so we’re all good.
I will also concede that the poster who mentioned a black-and-white, good vs evil view of things would be correct to interpret that as the the origin of my point of view. I will not, however, agree with the idea that is is childlike. Quite the opposite.
This is the focal point of the discussion. I find no acceptable, understandable or sympathetic reasons for Martha’s actions insofar as her espionage in concerned. The only possible scenario where I could sympathize with her would be if she were doing so under threat of death to someone she loves, such as a family member.
That situation is not present here.
Martha works for the FBI. The very nature of her position requires the highest possible standard. I get the impression that the feeling here is… “Poor Martha…she’s love sick, so let’s cut her some slack…it’s understandable what she did, so I feel sorry for her.” If I am in error here, by all means feel free to say so.
There are situations where I can cut someone slack. Espionage is not one of them. I suspect that nowhere in the statutes covering espionage does it state that one is exempt from the law if one is under personal stress. There are no “Get Out of Jail Free” cards.
You spy on the United States, you go to jail, which is where Martha belongs.
Finally, as for UTJ’s point that “we’re not watching a caped super hero here”. I don’t expect Martha to be a super-hero. I do however expect her to honor (there’s that inconvenient word again) her professional and legal obligations. If she willingly violates those obligations, then I cannot have much respect for her.
Is that unreasonable?
But her initial actions were taken at the behest of someone she honestly believed, leaving the love angle out for a moment, had the authority to ask her to take them. Anything after she began to suspect that “Clark” was not who he represented himself as, yeah, she’s on the hook for that.
I don’t what to say. If you can imagine a room going very silent I think that’s probably where we are.
I’m not sure we have much in common in how we understand the artistic ambitions of the show runnners but I hope you enjoy this season.
There’s a difference between sympathizing with someone and believing they are not legally responsible for their actions. It’s like someone who has sex with someone who is underage but really really really looks adult. It’s still a crime. It has to be a crime. We can’t afford for it not to be a crime. But we – as interested observers, not the legal system – can still definitely make an ethical distinction between that person and an adult who hangs around outside a junior high school trying to pick up a date, fully cognizant of what they are doing.
Martha was already guilty of espionage when we first met her in season 1. But if at that point the FBI had figured out what was going on, and decided to offer her a deal where if she worked for them and fed false information to Clarke (and thus to the Soviets), then they would not press charges once she had done that for a few years; well, I certainly wouldn’t look at that situation and get outraged that they were letting this evil traitor off the hook.
Nor would I. Indeed, such an agreement might cause me to re-evaluate the situation of Martha’s case. However, I can only work off the information revealed in the episodes.
Truth be told, what lost me regarding Martha was the whole “I’m glad you told me” deal and then deciding to again spy for P/C.
As for the reply from Up The Junction…I have to ask…
I have assiduously tried to avoid any personal comments while posting here. If you look at my posts, you will see no name calling, no caps etc. I have tried to be respectful.
However UTJ, I do find a touch of condescension in your comments. You’ve made several over the past couple of seasons where you seem to be dismissive of how myself and some other posters view the show. Most recently, your comment to me “your in all kinds of trouble with the show if you can’t think clearly.” Where did that come from?
In fact, I almost get the impression you are disapproving of the way this recent conversation between Max and I involving Martha has gone. I like Max…he presents some good viewpoints.
Do you consider yours the only way to approach “The Americans”? Do other viewpoints not meet your standards?
I hope you don’t think I’m being flip…my question is serious.
When I hear classical music I try to get the full breadth and catch the composers emotional intention but I am aware I miss so much. When I look at a Picasso, or even a Bacon, I know I don’t fully understand the complexity and beauty of the stoke, the colour choices, the ambition and aim of the art.
But in both of those cases I stand back and leave it to people who do understand, and I learn from them. I don’t reduce the art to my level because that’s all I know right now. I am aware there are levels beyond my abilities, sometimes way beyond.
I’m pleased you have an appreciation of art and classical music, but how does that give you the license to tell someone they “aren’t thinking clearly”? I find that comment not so much offensive, as stunning. It was as if you were saying, “you’re not looking at ‘The Americans’ properly, let me instruct you on the correct method.”
No such method exists.
If your ability to learn is as deep as you claim, then you would know by now you do not own the patent on interpreting art.
I wrote a long post and for some reason it didn’t post to the thread. Grr.
The short version: Philip’s childhood recollections were very disturbing but seem a key to understanding his character. He started to tell this story in an earlier episode but was interrupted before he reached the end. That earlier scene was one of the best scenes in the whole series IMO, revealing in an understated way some of the main characters’ central psychological tensions (to what extent have their assumed identities merged with their sense of who they really are, how can they integrate their public selves with their private versions of themselves, etc.). With the shockingly violent end to Philip’s childhood story, I wonder what this means for his character. The memory clearly (and understandably) haunts him. I hope the writers continue to explore where this memory and Philip’s uncharacteristic introspection lead him.
I don’t know why you thing TWD is somehow simplistic in that regard. Many characters this season have struggled with the moral dilemma of killing people, even outright evil people, even in the midst of the zombie apocalypse. Carol, Morgan, and even in just a short 30 second scene Glenn, all show much more though has gone into how killing takes a toll on them, far more than anything this show has done with Elizabeth and her “honor”. Philip is fortunately much much much more complex than her, and clearly is reaching the breaking point on his conscience, even going back to the bully in his childhood who totally deserved it.