The attitude of modern-day Germans towards Nazi Germany's military feats in World War II

[Velocity]

I know that modern-day Germans are about as un-Nazi a people as you could find anywhere on the planet. But for those of them who are WWII history buffs (if such a thing is a thing among modern Germans,) I wonder how they feel about the feats or war actions of the Luftwaffe/Wehrmacht, etc.

Do they ever express opinions like, “The Stuka dive-bomber was an impressive and nice piece of machinery” or “If only Germany had closed the trap and crushed the Brits and French at Dunkirk, things would have turned out so different” or “If only Hitler/Paulus had pulled the 6th Army out of Stalingrad, things would have turned out so different?”

Are such opinions permitted in Germany? (not legally speaking, but socially speaking)

[Velocity]

The related/tied-in question is - Do modern-day Germans feel bad about Nazi Germany’s defeats in the way most other people would about their nation’s defeats, in the sense of “Wish we had **won **at Stalingrad rather than lost?”

[EinsteinsHund]

@Velocity

The related/tied-in question is - Do modern-day Germans feel bad about Nazi Germany’s defeats in the way most other people would about their nation’s defeats, in the sense of “Wish we had **won **at Stalingrad rather than lost?”

Fucking no! Not discounting the terrible fates of the combatants and the civilian victims, every defeat for the Wehrmacht was necessary to stop all nazi crimes as soonest as possible. Every aggression and campaign by the German Wehrmacht was illegal/criminal anyway, so it’s a no-brainer who to have rooted for. We modern Germans, with the exception of a disconterting growing group of neonazis and xenophobes, don’t care to much for patriotism and militarism and don’t give a flying fuck if some of the historical entities which can be identified as German lost a battle sometimes somewhere.

[DinoR]

@Velocity

I know that modern-day Germans are about as un-Nazi a people as you could find anywhere on the planet.
Snipped bits
Are such opinions permitted in Germany? (not legally speaking, but socially speaking)

Are they as anti-Nazi as you think, though? There’s a difference between how strongly the majority of the population opposes Nazism and the breadth of that opposition.

After Merkel’s CDU party(with the affiliated Bavarian only CSU) on the right moved towards the center AfD (Alternative for Germany) has formed. They currently have the third largest representation in the Bundestag holding 13% of the seats. While they have a more “moderate” wing it’s moderate only in the sense of comparison to the strongly nationalist far-right wing.

The official AfD platform says that the party supports direct democracy, separation of state powers and the rule of law and order, but throughout its short history, critics have accused individual members of promoting neo-Nazi ideas and using neo-Nazi language. Detractors say that the party follows a strategy of targeted breaks with anti-Nazi taboos in an attempt to appeal to right-wing extremists. Local leader Björn Höcke, for instance, held a speech in the eastern city of Dresden, which many considered to have Nazi overtones and content. [links from the orginal cite edited back in]

Again, that’s currently the third largest party in the Bundestag. Then there’s the NDP. The government has actually tried to have them banned under the anti-Nazi laws, more than once. They’ve faded since the rise of AfD drew off their base. They used to hold some state level representation but currently hold no seats inside Germany. They do still hold a seat in the European Parliament. The judge referenced their current fringe status in the most recent decision as part of his justification. Still, they are about as Nazi as you can get and manage to exist as a party inside Germany.

The NPD, founded in 1964 as a successor to the [edit:banned] neo-fascist German Reich Party, calls for “the survival and continued existence of the German people in its ancestral central European living space” - or as their slogan says, “Germany for the Germans”.

There’s a German sitting in the European Parliament from a party that really cares about lebensraum. :smack:

The AfD managed to get 12.6% of the total vote in last years federal election. They also managed to get between a quarter to a third of the vote in some eastern districts. That includes some districts where the AfD won the plurality of the vote. It’s hard to make a case that strong national level taboos against all things Nazi extends broadly into areas where the AfD is winning.

It probably shouldn’t be all that surprising. Germany is a quarter of the US population. That there would be areas where societal taboos, even the strongest ones, fall well outside the national mainstream is to be expected among 82 million people. Alabama isn’t the same as California. The state of Saxony, where the AfD is strong, isn’t the same as North Rhine - Westphalia.

[CCitizen]

@Velocity

The related/tied-in question is - Do modern-day Germans feel bad about Nazi Germany’s defeats in the way most other people would about their nation’s defeats, in the sense of “Wish we had **won **at Stalingrad rather than lost?”

Hopefully not. Had Germany won in Russia, it would have brought a much worse fate for everyone including Germany. Germany would have been devastated by US Nuclear attack in 1946.

[CCitizen]

@EinsteinsHund

Fucking no! Not discounting the terrible fates of the combatants and the civilian victims, every defeat for the Wehrmacht was necessary to stop all nazi crimes as soonest as possible. Every aggression and campaign by the German Wehrmacht was illegal/criminal anyway, so it’s a no-brainer who to have rooted for. We modern Germans, with the exception of a disconterting growing group of neonazis and xenophobes, don’t care to much for patriotism and militarism and don’t give a flying fuck if some of the historical entities which can be identified as German lost a battle sometimes somewhere.

Thank you!

[Melbourne]

I guess it continues to evolve. Going back 30 years, what they thought was that Hitler killed a lot of Germans. Engineering success and military feats were seen in that context: Great Tank! If they thought that was going to win a war, they were morons… Great Victory! Would have been better if they’d all just gone home…

The ability of a previous regime to create building rubble, starvation, foreign occupation, and military and civilian deaths, wasn’t something they associated with successful design and admirable military feats.