A case has been brought in the UK by Sue Axon. She is asking the court to overturn the confidentiality of under 16s in the matter of abortion. She is NOT asking that parents be able to prevent their daughters from obtaining a termination, merely that all parents are informed.
The law on abortion in the UK is the 1967 Abortion Act.
Link: http://hometown.aol.com/abtrbng/aa67.htm
Now, here are my thoughts and I will try to keep it short and sweet. This is in the pit both because I fear it may turn nasty and because I’m not smart enough to put this in GD.
Most young girls faced with a crisis pregnancy will inform their parents. Many who choose not to do so have very good reasons. If (and only IF) they are considered competent, then their right to confidentiality should be respected. Doctors at present must try and persuade her to inform her parents or an adult she trusts, but if she refuses to do so, her wishes are respected. These girls may well be in a position to know what is in their best interest.
The reality is that although Ms Axon doesn’t wish to prevent her daughters obtaining an abortion, some parents will wish to do so. In that case there is very little that can be done to prevent them.
The other factor is that for some girls pregnancy (or sexual activity of any kind) may put their lives in danger, should their parents be made aware of it.
While Ms Axon may have the best motives in the world, a change in the legislation will lead directly to three things.
A rise in unplanned pregnancy and teenage motherhood as teens may feel that they cannot seek contraceptive advice or access to abortion if they aren’t entitled to confidentiality.
A rise in teens who would wish to have abortions being prevented from having them by their parents.
A rise in violence against girls already in very vulnerable situations.
If this law is passed it is only a matter of time before some poor child is beaten or murdered by her parents. That, in my view is unacceptable.
The onus is on parents to make sure their children are safe and informed when it comes to sex, and to bring them up in an environment of trust and safety where they are able to be open and honest. If your child keeps a pregnancy and/or abortion secret from you, your child is afraid to come to you for help and guidance. It’s not the state’s fault, it’s yours.
It is not the state’s place to decide that every parent’s right to know trumps the right of every child to safety.
Many years ago, my father and I were talking about pregnant teenagers and what would have happened if I’d gotten pregnant while in high school. He said to me, “You don’t really think I would have kicked you out, do you?” I told him, “You would have threatened too!” My relationship with my father was beyond rocky when I was a teenager – it was downright emotionally abusive. Knowing what I did in my 30’s, I know he wouldn’t have kicked me out; knowing what I did in my teens, I wouldn’t have known that and, if I had become pregnant, I would have run away or committed suicide rather than tell my parents. Fortunately, I was an incredible prude and a social untouchable who believed herself completely unattractive. The thing is, on the surface, we looked like a good family, I seemed like a good kid and in many ways my father and I did have a good relationship. I’m not sure if anyone would have understood why I wouldn’t tell my parents.
Hang it, I agree that in an ideal world teenagers should be able to tell their parents when they get pregnant, or, better yet, not get pregnant at all. On the other hand, we don’t live in that ideal world and we must protect those who need it, including those who feel they can’t tell their parents. Yes, teenagers can be wrong about what they think the consequences of their actions will be and I would have been wrong about my father. It took me over a decade to realize that though, and my father’s rages could be terrifying. Parental notification laws may only adversely affect a small percentage of teenage girls, but I thought the purpose of law was to protect all of a nation’s citizens, not just the majority. I think irishgirl’s right about the consequences of this law.
If, for whatever reason, my daughter went and got pregnant and decided to have an abortion before she was 16 I strongly feel it is in HER best interest that I and her mother be informed. An abortion and the events around it is likely to be a traumatic event for her and would colour her life for decades, and if my wife and I didn’t know about it we couldn’t attempt to counsel her or do anything to help her get through it.
Now I would like to think that our family is well adjusted enough that she would tell us herself, but maybe she doesn’t think so or she is listening to friends that don’t believe so. I remember how big problems could appear when you are a teenager and I am not sure I could rely on my daughter(s) to make the best decision in such a situation.
The parents are not always the big baddies, it is the parents duty and responsibility to help their child in this and all difficulties and if the government removes the parents rights to be informed about their childs affairs then they are preventing the proper relationship between parent and child.
This posting feels clumsy to me and I can’t get it to read smoothly so apologies for that, it seems to evoke strong emotions for some reason. Strange, it is years before (I hope) my children would be able to get into this situation.
ROU Dirty Only if Done Right- I am absolutely in favour of parents being aware of their daughter’s circumstances, when it is in their daughter’s best interest. I agree that in the majority of cases they are best placed to support her through a crisis pregnancy, and any decision she makes.
My issue is that it is NOT always in the daughter’s interest that her parents be informed, and that should this law be passed this would not be taken into account.
Think about it.
A girl says “I couldn’t possibly tell my parents I’m pregnant, as my father would kill me”. Now, how, exactly would doctors and social workers investigate whether the girl was at risk from her father doing exactly that without PUTTING her at risk.
It’s a Catch 22- you can’t find out if someone will kill their pregnant daughter, unless you tell them that their daughter is pregnant, at which point it may be far too late to help her, and best case scenario she is disowned and ends up in state care.
As it stands, the doctors advise her it would be a good idea to tell her folks, and can listen to her counter-arguments and argue agaisnt them, hoping to persuade her to tell them herself. They cannot, however, tell them against her wishes.
If doctors are required to tell the parents, there is no discretion on whether it is actually in the child’s best interest to do so, and that’s ignoring the bigger picture.
**ROU Dirty Only if Done Right ** Now is the time to start making sure they will tell you. Tell them now, while they still believe what you say, that your love is unconditional. Continue telling them and showing them as the teenage years get hard. Then they will almost certainly tell you.
I remember when I was maybe 16 a friend got kicked out of her house because she lost her coat. I remember at the time being completely appalled, and somewhat worried because it never occured to me I could be kicked out. I went home and told my mom about it, I think partly to be reasured. The idea was as completely foreign to my mother as it was to me. She offered to let the girl stay with us although she didn’t generally approve of most of my friends. At the time my mother and I were fighting tooth and nail, but I would have told her.
I believe that in the situation you describe society, in the form of the government, should get involved. Social services should investigate the parents and the girls situation. For surely in such a situation this would not the only thing that would trigger the fathers threatening behaviour, at the very least if the parents learn later the child is still in danger.
By having the Doctor remain silent this leaves the girl in the same situation, if not a worse one (procedures such as this are traumatic at the very least). Further it potentially encourages some children to avoid contraception, or use it as surrogate contraception.
I can’t think of a situation where the girls best interests are served by a doctor doing the abortion, and letting the girl leave with nothing else happening.
There was an initiative on the ballot here in California yesterday that would have required parental notification for teenagers getting an abortion. It didn’t pass, thank God.
ROU Dirty Only if Done Right- what I’m actually thinking about are girls from certain ethnic groups at risk of “honour killings”.
In that case there may well be no abuse until (or unless) the girl trangresses cultural taboos i.e. everything in the garden is rosy until dad finds out that his little girl has brought shame on the family.
Social services investigating would not help, and the girl would risk disownment not only by her family, but by her community, with any chance of marriage within that community scuppered.
Obviously, if the girl is already being physically abused, then social services should step in, but if she has chosen to have a termination social services would support her choice.
I would like to remind you also that this is not about whether such girls can or can’t obtain abortion, if she’s Gillick competent she can obtain a free NHS termination without parental consent, and the change to the law would not prevent that (except if her parents lock her in her room until she was 24 weeks pregnant), merely stating that they would have to be notified at some stage.
This ruling would only apply to Gillick competent under 16s, the Gillick incompetent patient requires parental consent and competent over 16s are entitled to full adult confidentiality.
Do bear in mind that in the UK 50% of pregnancies in the under 16s end in termination of pregnancy, the vast majority of these with parental knowledge and support.
Part of pre-termination and post-termination counselling involves discussion of contraceptive needs, and any doctor worth their salt would want such a girl to their clinic with enough knowledge and resources to prevent this recurring.
The real problem (flying beneath most people’s radar) is that the institution of childhood had gotten farther and farther out of hand in the last two centuries.
No one old enough to be more than a Guinness Book of World Records outlying statistic if pregnant should be subjected to the condescensions and disempowerments known as “childhood”. I say we move the age of majority to 10. Vote, drive, sign contracts, consent, be liable, the whole works. The 10 year old of 1300 AD had more freedom than 10 year olds of today, and I see no benefit to this at all.
There was an intitive like this in Florida and it passed.
Makes me glad I’m a grown woman.
And I voted “No” on it. Teenage girls are often silent about pregnancy/abortion for a reason and if they do say something, then it’s something they would do on their own without state help.
A small, but significant, percentage of teenage pregancies are a result of paternal or near-relative sexual abuse. These teenagers are obviously more vulnerable physically and emotionally. If they haven’t gotten any help already, the revelation of pregnancy often puts them at risk either from the abuser or from his defenders within the family. Given that suicide risk in abused teenagers is already high, I’m guessing that forced parental involvement would also put them at higher risk of suicide, too. While I like to think that many teenagers have a sufficiently supportive family group to help them with the stress of an abortion, I strongly believe that they should make that evaluation themselves.
Anyone who says they doubt their daughters could make the right decision without talking to their parents first means that they wouldn’t want their daughters to get an abortion. Which is (IMHO) non of their goddamn business, seeing as it is not their body or their life.
And people who say this encourages kids to not use birth control are not thinking it through. Kids don’t use birth control because they either don’t have it or because they are simply too horny to think properly. No girl thinks that spending $300 on an abortion is better than spending $3.00 on condoms. Ridiculous idea.
Young women need confidentiality in this situation because it is their decision alone, and no one else should have the right to make the decision for them. Period. The points about potential physical danger are also true but to me they are not the main reason to keep confidentiality in place.
The girl should have the right to confidentiality. However, going through with an abortion is going to be very traumatic, so some kind of social service support is important. This could be, in some cases, actually better than her talking to her family about it, depending on their views. The truth of the matter is, if the parents know, they’re going to have a lot of influence on the girl as to whether to keep it or not. Whether that’s right or not? I can’t say. But i’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the girl rather than the family on the basis that it is, primarily, her (and the boy in question)'s decision to make.
I know that the OP was referencing events occuring in the UK, and I’m not familar with the state of their social services. However, in the US, the social services agencies, particularly child protection, is severely overtaxed.
I think you are describing the ideal situation, but I’m not confident that the reality would work out like that. It’s a sucky situation, but I think there are existing issues with Social Services that need to be resolved before additional burdens can be added to the system.
Finally, I’m never sure of why people think abortions are so easy to get or can somehow replace condoms. I don’t have a cite at my fingertips, but there are something like 60-70 physicians that can provide abortions in the entire state of Pennsylvania. PA is a pretty large state, but there are entire regions that lack a physician that will provide an abortion. You can’t just pop in like it was nothing. In addition to a limited number of physicians, you are legally required to wait 24 hours between signing consent forms and actually getting the procedure. I don’t think there’s any danger of abortion becoming a “surrogate contraception.”
While I am quite impressed by your apparent ability to read someones mind from a few lines of text, this ability has failed you this time.
If one of my daughters accidently became pregnant before 16 (or even before 20) then I would support her and probably even encourage an abortion. I don’t see any need for her to waste her life before she has even had a chance to enjoy it. My wife doesn’t really like the idea of abortion but would probably concur in such a situation as well, though needless to say (or maybe not on this board) the choice is hers alone (the daughter).
However this isn’t about the choice, this is about the child getting the support and care after the event. I don’t know about you, but I have noticed that my decision making abilities and emotional stability has improved greatly since I was 14, back then I found even relatively minor problems very emotional and stressful when I was an early teen. At that time given a choice I would always have hidden things I thought shameful (which seemed to be almost anything to do with sex and the like) to myself, thinking my parents wouldn’t understand or other such things a teen thinks. I know now that my Parents could have been a great help (even though a little fuddy duddy) if I had talked to them.
You also have to remember that in the UK a child (or adult) doesn’t have to pay ANYTHING for either condoms or an abortion. The vast majority of medical or health requirements are free (or virtually free) here.
IrishGirl has a valid point about the honour killings and the like, and I accept it is a difficult situation, but ultimately how many potential honour killings do we have compared to the amount of potentially vulnerable girls who are just scared. Girls who would take the ‘easy’ option of not letting their parents know in fear of disapproval or imagined threats? What about these girls long term mental health? My sister has never quite got over a miscarriage she had when she younger, she didn’t have much to do with the family at the time and we never heard about it until years later when she had a nervous breakdown.
Everyone seems to think all these kids are coming from badly broken homes with death and brutality waiting for them at home. The vast majority of problems for disturbed kids is due to parent apathy rather than brutality, again I am talking about the UK here (for all I know America could be as everyone seems to think). My wife is a teacher and the kids with the greatest family problems are almost always due to parents not caring what happens with the kids rather than actively making life harder for them.
More children would be helped than hurt by notifying their parents/guardian after an abortion has been done, if the the doctor feels there is a risk from their family there is already a requirement to get social services involved.
Incidental - abortions aren’t anywhere near as difficult to get in the UK as you decribe. Which is a good thing, in my opinion.
ROU Dirty Only if Done Right- You’re missing the point.
If one girl gets killed because her parents was informed of her pregnancy it is too many.
Professional counselling is offered as part of the pre and post abortion interview…do you really think that this is less helpful than parental advice?
Help and care don’t have to come only from parents, and sometimes it’s better that they don’t.
Some women find abortions “very traumatic”, some find them “traumatic” and some find them not at all traumatic. Certainly having an early termination of an unwanted pregnancy may well be less traumatic than any of the alternatives.
So what if girls take the “easy” option of not telling their parents? Sometimes that’s what will help them the most…once they have grown up a little and have some distance they may feel able to tell their parents, they may not. All the same, it should be their decision.