The Bhuj Catastrophe and Solutions

Great Debates
21

Here is a superb article on the misspending of disaster relief aid. The following is a brief excerpt of some examples from it;

‘Diversion of funds’ is primarily achieved through various forms of embezzlement:[ul][li]‘Kick-back’ agreements when placing orders. Relief goods are ordered at excessive prices; the additional amount or part of it is given back to those who place the orders.[/li]
[li]Accepting relief goods of poorer quality than was agreed in the contract: in an arrangement similar to kick-backs, a share of the additional profits which result from delivering poor quality are distributed between those who place the orders or who are responsible for quality controls.[/li]
[li]Selling relief goods to dealers.[/li]
[li]Distributing relief goods to persons not entitled to receive them in exchange for payment.[/li]
[li]Delaying the spending of funds intended for emergency aid and using them in the meantime to make a profit (for example by investing them, which is a lucrative form of embezzlement given the high inflation rates and high nominal interest rates in many developing countries). The profits which result are paid out privately to those responsible.[/li]
[li]Taking advantage of the considerable differences which exist in some countries between the official rate of exchange (which is used for statements of account provided to foreign donors) and the far more advantageous rate on the parallel or black market.[/ul][/li]Here is an excellent overview of corruption issues.

India among most corrupt countries – Study
UNITED NEWS OF INDIA

NEW DELHI, OCT 26: Transparency International (TI) India, a non-governmental `peoples’ coalition against corruption’, said on Tuesday that according to a study it had commissioned, India was among the most corrupt nations in the world.

(Emphasis mine)

Here’s the link to it.

Here’s a link to the Palestinian vandalism.

"Arsonists caused more than 100 forest fires in the Galilee over an area 2,000 acres. "

Here is a link for the Dalmatian eco-terrorism. Some excerpts;

“The Serbs used incendiary phosphorus shells to burn Trsteno. It was a thuggish act in a particularly thuggish war and left me speechless with a combination of rage and incomprehension. How poisoned by hate would a commander have to be to order the burning of trees that have stood for 500 years?”

“The damage at Trsteno was immense. All the 19th-century pine forest with its sweeping walkways and carefully constructed views was burnt to the ground leaving only blackened skeletons. More than 80 percent of the 20ha park was destroyed and it was little short of a miracle that the oldest part, around the villa, largely survived, although eight years after the attack, one of the oldest palm trees is still charred along the length of its trunk…”

“…Trsteno had no strategic value. It was nothing more than a case of the Serbs seeking to erase the history of Croatia as it tried to stand on its own two feet. I have worked in the Balkans long enough to know atrocities were committed by all sides, but nothing I saw justified this wanton thuggery.”

Another link concerning Croatian reforestation.

[World Bank] Helps Croatia Reconstruct Coastal Forests

A $42 million loan to help finance a Coastal Forest Reconstruction and Protection Project was approved by the World Bank on December 11. The project will restore and protect forest land along the Dalmatian coast, enhancing the landscape and recreation values of the region and contributing to the revival of tourism to its prewar level. It includes the reforestation of 5,000 hectares of the 11,000 hectares of forests destroyed by war and fire damage in Senj, Zadar Sibenik, Split, and Dubrovnik. Croatia has a large (over 2.4 million hectares) forest resource base, which covers 43.5 percent of the total land area. Since Croatia joined the World Bank in 1993, Bank commitments total over $450 million for nine projects.

As to the Balkans;

Bosnia:
Up to US $1 Billion lost in fraud

“The New York Times” of 17 August reported that U.S.-led anti-fraud investigators have found that Serbian, Croatian and Muslim nationalist leaders have stolen up to US $1 bn from public funds for international aid projects since the Dayton peace agreement was signed in 1995.
[sup]Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, 7 August; 6 September 1999[/sup]

Here’s another hint for you Fillet, please don’t ask me to provide cites for something I did not post in the first place. If you take the time to read this article on the misspending of disaster relief aid, you will see that all sides involved go to lengths to conceal the mismanagement of foreign disaster aid.

For someone who seems to travel widely Fillet, you don’t seem to follow world events in depth.

22

**

I understand the difference between population pressure and
malfeasance. That is why I did not mention Cairo in the OP.

However misguided you may feel my intentions to be, at least I give a d@mn about an issue that most Americans are fairly ignorant of. You have previously demonstrated a good command of other facts Collounsbury, so I will cheerfully accept your criticism here. I am curious as to what you might think there can be done about the problem. As with so many others in this thread, you too have failed to posit any alternatives.

23

Zen said

Sheesh! I keep reading the alternative as being “let them work it out.” Or am I missing something?

Quit being a colonialist and let 'em be. Disasters happen. Give money, volunteer your time if that be your bent, but an international bureaucracy on top of the local bureacracy probably won’t help.

24

That is why I suggest bringing to bear an existing bureaucracy and not a new one.

I’m sure it’s safe to assume that most everyone here works hard for their money. Wouldn’t it be nice to see it do the most good?

25

Well, in many respects the two go hand in hand.

However misguided you may feel my intentions to be, at least I give a d@mn about an issue that most Americans are fairly ignorant of.

[/quote]

That’s true, but frankly your reaction strikes me a more than slightly colonialist. I understand the reaction, but in the end people have to generate their own solutions in order to have lasting effects. In that light, imposing too much from the outside will only have perverse effects. Let me, however, retract my pissiness.

Well, I have to give some thought to this, but I don’t think there is a magic bullet. I know what corruption does to the economy. I deal with this shit daily. We have, speaking in part for my private corporation --eh, I mean who I work for!-- to build in an expectation of corruption when dealing with things.

The question in my mind is how does one support internal demands to end corruption (and deal with the pressures which create it – carrot and stick). Much, but not all, corruption is generated by bloated state sectors where under-paid bureaucrats use corruption to supplement there pay. And given what they earn, they may have some justification, while clearly the fat cats skim off more and depend on ‘small scale corruption’ to keep their underlings content. Supporting realistic reductions in the public payroll, reducing occasions for embezzling foreign funds and supporting local anti-corruption groups is not perhaps the sexy way to go, but its the only one I can think of that will work. Otherwise you just are going to produce resentment.

26

Please allow me to quote the immortal American poet, Langston Hughes;

“I see(s) we(s) agree(s)…”

27

In response to your various items…

Please allow me to quote from the abstract to this article (emphasis mine):

As stated, this article focuses upon corruption within the relief agencies themselves. The list you provide is that of activities engaged in largely by *employees of the relief organizations.*The author makes a couple of assertions about Indian official misuse of relief funds, but he has no numbers to back up what he says. If the practice is as common as you have stated above, there is surely another cite that mentions specific monetary figures.

I followed your link. While India’s rank of 73rd out of 99 countries examined in the study doesn’t give it a stellar reputation, there ARE worse places, apparently. Still don’t know where your comment about Mexico came from, as it’s not mentioned in this link at all. I also note that: “The study was based, among other things, on the opinions of corporations of 19 leading exporting countries perceived to be paying bribes abroad. The ranking was determined by the corruption index' and bribe payers’ perception index’.” Hmmm… sounds like an objective study to me. :rolleyes:

I added this to my list of cite requests largely because I wanted to know what the heck this had to do with misuse of disaster relief funds. The first link describes the burning of 2000 acres by arsonists as part of Palestinian rioting after Ariel Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount last September. The second describes the partial destruction of a famous garden by the Serbs during the Croatian war of independence. Can you please explain what either of these things has to do with eco-terrorism to “ruin tourist appeal”? And what does any of this have to do with misuse of disaster relief funds??

Oh, wait! I see:

Very interesting. Truly - I’m glad that there is an effort somewhere to quantify things. However, this last link has no clear connection to either of the first two links you gave in support of my third query. Can you establish a clear link for me?

If you’ll note, my last request for cites was not surrounded in quotes because I wasn’t quoting you directly. I was frankly puzzled by your emphasis on aid for post-disaster reconstruction, when most relief organizations I’m familiar with don’t make that a priority. To review what you did say, in part (emphasis mine):

Clearly, misuse of international funds for post-disaster reconstruction resonates strongly with you. Out of curiosity, I checked out the web sites of several large agencies currently engaged in disaster relief in India to see what sorts of relief they are providing. To shorten an already long post, I’ll just give links below:

American Red Cross
Mercy-USA
CARE
Lutheran World Relief
Church World Service
World Vision
Oxfam America
AmeriCares

Having looked over these links, I will admit that some agencies (e.g. American Red Cross) seem to be involved in post-disaster reconstruction than I originally thought. However, it still is not the prime focus for disaster relief; short-term supplies (food, water, blankets, plastic sheeting for temporary shelter) are given the highest priority. Long-term reconstruction projects are by and large engaged in by Indian NGO (non-governmental) agencies such as CASA (working with Lutheran World Relief and Church World Service) with assistance from the outside, because presumably the Indians themselves know better how to handle internal logistical matters.

The amounts of money that these agencies say they have spent so far is impressive, but still rather short of providing millions of dollars for just the reconstruction portions of their budgets (if they do reconstruction at all). You mentioned several times that great amounts of money are wasted during reconstruction. I asked if you could give me a figure for reconstruction as opposed to other efforts, but you sidestepped my request by pointing back to an article with virtually no numbers attached, and said it was impossible to provide figures. Not even a ballpark figure for how much was supposed to have been spent on reconstruction, Zenster? International relief agencies don’t keep those numbers? How did the New York Times manage to figure out that money was embezzled from Bosnian relief funds if such a task is impossible?

Wait… doesn’t that mean it’s not just the Indians at fault when embezzlement occurs? Takes a little steam out of your OP if you can’t blame everything on just the Indians, no?

You have not yet addressed the various points about building codes, finances and feasibility problems that I and others have pointed out. It seems not even Tiggeril is willing to support the statements you made in the OP. Collounsbury tells you that your idea is whack, yet you latch on the smallest bone he throws you and call him friend. Despite your stated willingness to hear opinions about your ideas, you refuse apparently to even consider that your ideas might be impractical, and thus completely discount anything that doesn’t go in your favor.

::shakes head in wonder::

I have traveled a bit. I have also had the good fortune to have friends from a variety of countries that have educated me about the places they call home, including those considered Third World. I’m not blind to the fact that there are all sorts of problems that exist on this planet. But I’m also sensitive to the fact that, as has been pointed out already, Western-style solutions to problems can be completely impractical in non-Western countries.

I’ve also learned to adjust my world-view in the face of new information. You might want to try that, rather than continuing to defend an unrealistic concept.

28

**

Except that you didn’t ignore my mistaken use of cost when I meant code. In fact it was the first thing you brought to decided to focus on. So what’s the answer to the question? Would the added expense of building up to “code” make many of those Indians homeless?

**

I’ve seen an awful lot of news footage of Indians living in what we’d consider dirty squalid conditions. Maybe rebar every foot is to much for them to afford.

**

You’ll excuse me if I don’t find petty corruption to be a crime against humanity.

**

Well I don’t feel obligated to attempt India to change.

Ever heard of a search engine?

::stomps off to go find tiggeril::
**
[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah, and I’ll suddenly become an expert thanks to the world wide web.

Marc

29

Resolved:

[li]That large scale corruption exists within the construction sectors of many Third World countries.[/li]
[li]That shoddy reconstruction makes future disaster inevitable.[/li]
[li]That enormous loss of life can be a frequent outcome of such shoddy reconstruction in large urban areas.[/li]
[li]That such large loss of life due to intention violation of existing building codes is a form of murder or manslaughter, at least.[/li]
[li]That any monetary aid passing through the hands of said code violaters abets their continuing criminal conduct.[/li]
[li]That it is a fundamental human right to not be exposed to unlawful and endangering conduct by government sanctioned construction of substandard buildings.[/li]
I’m fairly sure that most of you would find it difficult to argue with all but the last entry above. While my OP may have gone quite a bit farther than just the items above, it nonetheless stands as an attempt to find legal resolution to what is a serious disregard for human life.

As someone who once was on a debate team, I realize that you may feel inclined to merely poke holes in the framework that I have suggested. However, if you are in agreement that such conduct is corrupt, mere disputation of my suggestion brings us no closer to a proper resolution of the problem.

If you are so adept in disproving my point perhaps you can apply your skill to positing a more workable alternative. Somewhere, there is a solution to this sort of criminal behavior. Waiting for archaic and outmoded systems to fix themselves is a good way to tacitly permit the continued criminal activity I have identified. To claim to have won the debate without demonstrating a couterproposal of merit is a pretty hollow victory.

30

Yeah, I know. It was my understanding that the Cato Institute was a think tank.
http://www.cato.org/

I understand that a think tank devoted to less government and more free markets won’t be predisposed to like something on the scale of the World Bank, but one would think that they might be a little bit objective. Anyway, here’s somebody else at cato.org who doesn’t like what the World Bank is doing.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-215.html

Are you saying there’s nothing to this? Everything’s fine and dandy down at World Bank headquarters?

**

Nah, all I know about the World Bank is what I read in the Atlantic Monthly, which admittedly tends towards the gloom and doom aspect. :slight_smile:

However, a quick Google search under “World Bank insolvency” turned up their own annual report for last year.
http://www.worldbank.org/html/extpb/annrep/over.htm

And, er, umm, I know this is a gross oversimplification, and that there are financial ramifications to all this that are scarcely comprehensible to a housewife in Illinois who feels lucky to be able to grasp the concept of compound interest (on my good days, when the sun is shining and I’ve had my coffee), but I can’t help noticing that, although the report goes on and on about “Poverty Reduction Strategy” and “Building blocks of a new vision”, still the fact remains that last year they lent $15.3 billion, that’s fifteen point three billion dollars, and nowhere does it mention anybody paying any of it back. Yet.

Dunno how they do things at the International High Finance level, but when my bank down the street here publishes its annual report, don’t they usually come clean not only on much they lent, but also on how much people have paid back?

31

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zenster *
**Resolved:

[li]That large scale corruption exists within the construction sectors of many Third World countries.**[/li][/quote]

Agreed.
**

[quote]
[li]That shoddy reconstruction makes future disaster inevitable.**[/li][/quote]

Agreed.
**

[quote]
[li]That enormous loss of life can be a frequent outcome of such shoddy reconstruction in large urban areas.**[/li][/quote]

Agreed, but you’ve got kind of a jump here. Your train of thought only goes to “reconstruction after a disaster”; do you also mean “new construction”?
**

[quote]
[li]That such large loss of life due to intention violation of existing building codes is a form of murder or manslaughter, at least.**[/li][/quote]

Agreed. The Code of Hammurabi called for the death penalty for a builder whose houses fell down.
**

[quote]
[li]That any monetary aid passing through the hands of said code violaters abets their continuing criminal conduct.**[/li][/quote]

But now you’ve got another big jump here. You left out, “[li]That such forms of murder or manslaughter are the business of anybody outside the country in which such forms of murder or manslaughter are illegal”. Hammurabi didn’t expect the Egyptian Pharoah to come butting into his internal affairs and try to tell him what penalties should be invoked for builders whose houses fell down. You’ve jumped directly to, “[*]That not only it is the business of people outside the country where such forms of murder or manslaughter are illegal, but also that they should bring fiscal pressure to bear to ensure enforcement.” I would have to disagree with both of those statements.[/li]**

[quote]
[li]That it is a fundamental human right to not be exposed to unlawful and endangering conduct by government sanctioned construction of substandard buildings.**[/li][/quote]

I agree with this, but I don’t see where the Sampoong Department Store’s shoddy construction was “government sanctioned”. I think that South Korea probably has definite laws on their books mandating punishment for builders whose houses fall down, so to speak. “Bribery of government officials” is not the same thing as “government sanctioned”.

**
Right, and we’re not saying that you’re a Bad Person for trying to fix things, okay? :slight_smile: We’re just saying that the scope of the thing you’re trying to fix is so overwhelming, and there are so many other, equally important things that involve a serious disregard for human life, that our minds are just collectively boggled. What about the rampant pollution everywhere in the world, and the manufacture and use of pesticides and herbicides that are no longer allowed in the U.S.? What about things like the Union Carbide Bhopal disaster?

**
Okay, seriously? Seriously, the only workable alternative would be to have some kind of One World Government, either imposed from without (aliens conquer the world) or installed from within (the Antichrist). Seriously. That’s all I can think of. How else are you gonna have South Korea and North Korea agreeing on construction standards? How else are Taiwan and China going to sit down at the table and hammer out an agreement covering laws prohibiting “serious disregard for human life”? The Chinese are the ones who are in the process of brutally stamping out the Falun Gong sect–these are the folks you expect to be kinder and gentler and to promise not to have any more serious disregard for human life?

**
Well, not to sound facetious or anything, but yeah, there is–it’s called the Millenium. :smiley:

Alternatively, we could go the Total Mind Control 1984 route and have Big Brother watching everybody, or the Logan’s Run solution, or the Matrix solution. Which one sounds good to you?

**
This is only true for the people who live within the system. For people who lived in New York City during the 1880s, waiting for the archaic and outmoded Tammany Hall system to fix itself was a good way to tacitly permit the continued criminal activity. However, bankers in Chicago didn’t tell potential borrowers in New York, “Now, we can’t loan you any money until you fix your archaic and outmoded system that tacitly permits continued criminal activity.” They may have disapproved, but it really wasn’t any of their business, and they knew it.

**
Er, I don’t see anybody claiming a victory here. :confused:

32

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose *

**As nice as it would be to have all construction monitored that goes well beyond the realm of feasibility and also represents too much interference in a country’s internal affairs. That is why I have restricted my suggestion to rebuilding that is financed by foreign aid.

[QUOTE]
**

[quote]
[li]That such large loss of life due to intention violation of existing building codes is a form of murder or manslaughter, at least.**[/li][/quote]

Agreed. The Code of Hammurabi called for the death penalty for a builder whose houses fell down.
**

[quote]
[li]That any monetary aid passing through the hands of said code violaters abets their continuing criminal conduct.**[/li][/quote]

But now you’ve got another big jump here. You left out, [li]“That such forms of murder or manslaughter are the business of anybody outside the country in which such forms of murder or manslaughter are illegal”. Hammurabi didn’t expect the Egyptian Pharoah to come butting into his internal affairs and try to tell him what penalties should be invoked for builders whose houses fell down. You’ve jumped directly to, “[*]That not only it is the business of people outside the country where such forms of murder or manslaughter are illegal, but also that they should bring fiscal pressure to bear to ensure enforcement.” I would have to disagree with both of those statements.[/li][/quote]
**“That such forms of murder or manslaughter are the business of anybody outside the country in which such forms of murder or manslaughter are illegal”

When such loss of life is avoidable and can be prevented by imposing contingencies upon voluntary outside aid, what is so intrusive about making sure that the problem does not unnecessarily repeat itself? What is so dispicable about channeling funds into reputable efforts to truly solve a problem instead of perpetuating it?

A country that accepts outside aid has already abdicated some of its self determination by relying upon external finance. What makes it offensive to qualify construction companies based upon their ability to adhere to minimum code specifications? I am confident that India already has in place some level of code enforcement. Can’t we make sure that these criteria are met, at least?

“Hammurabi didn’t expect the Egyptian Pharoah to come butting into his internal affairs and try to tell him what penalties should be invoked for builders whose houses fell down.”

Hammurabi seemed to have the situation well in hand. What further intervention is necessary when there are already adequate measures in place? Quite plainly, in India there are not adequate measures in place, at least in terms of corruption not interfering with the safety of the populace. Is it unreasonable to require that basic levels of compliance and accountability accompany the receipt of massive capital influx in the form of foreign aid?

People have dismissed out of hand my proposals claiming that they are “foolish” or whacko, yet there are compelling reasons to begin pursuit of such measures in order to alleviate such blatantly unnecessary suffering. Such dismissal neither disproves nor constitutes any sort of valid disqualification of my propositions.

33

**

You’re “confident” that they already have some level of code enforcement? You don’t really know and you had the gall to jump on my back when I admitted I had limited knowledge of India. In your own words “Ever hear of a search engine?”

**

You don’t know that it is corruption that is interfering with the safety of the populace. You have no idea what the building codes are do you? And correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t those buildings standing up just fine before the earthquake hit?

**

It really depends on what those levels of requirement are and what you expect to acomplish.

What would the cost be in India to build things to “specification?” Would all those people be able to afford such housing?

Marc

34

First,

Apoligies for the whack typing. My god damned keyboard seems to be wearing out.

now, Zenster;

Your idea of imposing criminal penalties is utterly whack. it is wrong-headed in the extreme. I can’t begin to list the points where it fails. Well i will give it a try;

(1) national sovereignty; accepting outside aide has never been considered as a matter of law giving up sovereignty. If we began to impose such an idea, the perverse effect of less aide being accepted and more suffering produced is likely.

(2) related to this, outside imposition of these norms is as likely to produce a perverse counter-reaction as not.

(3) why is it that this form of suffering requires intervention and not global suffering from poverty generally. poverty is largely the root of all this, what not intervene generally. as a matter of logic this seems to be required.

(4) massive intervention will provoke massive counter-reaction.

your scheme is neo-colonialist and would create many more problems than it would solve.

The key is to generate local support for change and then support it. That is the sole way to create lasting change

Otherwise:

Yes, a right-wing think tank largely opposed to the existance of int’l orgs on principal.

I would not personally rely on their materials for an objective review of the evidence.

I wouldn’t (mind you World Bank is hardly anti-free-market).

I’m saying that I’d like to see something other than this smoke-blowing. I’ve never encountered substantive accusations that WB’s portfolio is in serious trouble. I assume, given what I do that I would have before now if that was truly the case.

WB is not perfect, however I’ve not seen anything leading me to believe the gloom and doomers re IMF or WB who seem to me to come in two flavors – (1) Cato folks ideologically opposed to the existance of such institutions (2) folks who don’t understand the operations very well.

Can’t say I read the magazine so I can’t comment.

I would advise looking at the financials and not the overview. I’m afraid i’m having connection problems so I can’t access what I normally can, however such information is available --if not online, through other sources.

In any case, repayment is occuring.

Sure, and that information is available.

35

I finally got my connectivity stabilized; DDG you will find the information you are seeking in the financials section of their annual report. Do not expect the structure and dialogue to be like a local bank. The WB is not “bank” per se, but an institution lending for development purposes. It’s not here to turn a profit, ergo its Annual Report will have somewhat different focus.

Probably further discussion of the purpose and solvency of international (non-private sector) financial institutions should go to another thread, however.

36

Zenster, clearly you and I will just have to agree to disagree. We are working from two diametrically opposed fundamental assumptions: you are assuming that the Rest of the World has the right to dictate what kind of infrastructure a country chooses. I am assuming that what kind of infrastructure a country chooses to have is nobody’s business but its own.

C-bury, sorry, I don’t do math :slight_smile: but I do do words, and reading their report, I have to say that it sounds a teensy bit defensive. If they are a success, what have they got to be defensive about?

This just sounds like, “Well, hey, we had an 80% success rate, which at least was better than last year, and it was really hard, too.”

“This book report would have been two pages long if the printer hadn’t quit working…” Excuses, excuses…

“Hey, you should see what our work environment looks like, I’m amazed we get anything done around here…”

The whole report’s like that. And I actually do think it’s germane to the OP, because Zenster’s saying that he wants these big international loans to be the enforcement arm, the Big Stick to hold over South Korea’s head if they don’t quit building houses that fall down.

Since you’re the briefcase-carrying math person, :slight_smile: why don’t you look around on their site and find some numbers that show me that the Cato Institute folks are all flag-waving weirdos who prolly think the Ancient Egyptians snorted coke. :smiley:

I am especially intrigued by the “Where the World Bank Got Its Money?” link. No, no, I don’t wanna click on it myself and spoil it–surprise me. Um, probably not from asking their dad for it, right? Or from sticking up liquor stores? Maybe they won the lottery? :smiley:

37

Did you notice the demos against the IMF-WB and all the “evil” international orgs? Have you noted the ignorant rhetoric coming from the Jesse Helms faction of the right wing. Or Cato’s less than balanced attack on them?

Globalization makes for tough issues, and lots of smoke and ranting. WB and IMF have been put square in the headlights of the anti-globalization folks. Not that I feel most of these characters understand the issues… (Cato folks of course do, I just disagree with their analsyis)

Given WB is tackling the least promising parts of the world, which private banks often won’t touch, and given they have been facing all kinds of false accusations (as well as some well-founded critiques) I don’t blame them.

You can find, in the Financials, a management summary which gives a quick easy to understand review of the bank’s basic finances. I can’t recall (but didn’t look for it either) seeing anything like major set asides for losses. Part of this is responding to rhetoric about the bank never funding a successful project. Of course, what is successful is a bit harder to define than it might seem Environmental groups have one standard. Social Justice folks another. Marxists yet a third. Freedom style Libertarians yet a fourth. Everyone jumps on the Bank.

Flippancy doesn’t cut it with me. Come to Africa and try to do business. Shipments disappearing, all kinds of rough shit. I like the Continent, I do think there is potential here, and I try my best to convince my bosses to continue, but it looks like we may “retrench” – the Bank is being honest. They have a spade with which to hold back a flood. Some critics w/o a clue of how things have to get done like to sit in DC and make unrealistic criticisms. WB ain’t perfect, but I’ve got respect for my WB contacts here.

I believe he posits the ICJ as the enforcement arm. The premise is flawed from the start. No one, not the USA, not Europe no one is going to go for making domestic corruption, even such that it results in deaths, a matter of human rights law. It was fucking hard enough to get what is clearly HR violations like death squads covered.

In re these ideas, Zenster simply needs to apply the same fairly clear thinking he displayed in the Mid-East terrorism. Think about how Americans would react to the same principals applied to the good old USA.

Because if you click through the link you can find the numbers easily enough for yourself in the Management summary. If it were harder than that… So why not try that, and then if you have Q.

Note, I am not saying that the Cato Folks are idiots. However they have a very specific agenda. Unless the WB was run as a private entity, they would always have something to pick on. Essentially the Cato position is that free-market lending can do everything WB can do, and that we don’t really need the IMF either. (I believe they’re also taking that position) Frankly, I find such arguments…based on a mystical belief in free market and private sector.

However, even if it were private, there would be the same god damned risk. Only it would be private sector. Why do you think the Industrial Nations get worried about currency crises in far away places? In no small part because big Western banks have serious exposure to both sovereign (national) and private debts in the countries concerned. Believe me, if the WB is facing defaults endangering its solvency, then bad things are happening to private banks and we are in a world of shit. And, as you well know, we (i.e. the most developed nations gov’ts) do bail out private boys too. Your tax dollars, IMHO, are more likely to go to a private bank bailout than a WB bailout.

Seed money and contributions from members, subsequently both IMF and WB are largely self-funded through various investments and returns on their loans.

38

This is probalby the most important thing said in this discussion. How many people in India die EVERY year because of a lack clean water. A water and sewage treatment project would likely save more lives in the long run.

39

Zenster:

I applaude your enthusiasm! And your ideas! I feel that anyone who contributes to a cause is well within their rights to ask about how that money is distributed (if you listen to Stoidela, I’m being an asshole-selfish conservative for thinking so), and especially to withhold that money if they feel that it’s not getting through to the intended recipient.

Claims of “Cultural Imperialism” or what-not don’t disturb me in the slightest, and if America sends foreign aid, I feel it shouldn’t trouble our politicians any either; it is our money, after all.

40

I remember watching a documentary on a famous ship wrecking yard in India. What struck my attention was the abject poverty of the thousands of workers, using cheap, primitive tools, no safety gear at all, to hammer ships apart. People scrabbled in the mud, no doubt toxic as hell because of spilled oils, fuels and chemical residue, to salvage the tiniest scraps. Then, upon leaving the site, they were searched to make sure they did not sneak out a couple of cents worth of copper or brass!

They make like a couple of bucks a day, are provided with a crappy meal of rice with maybe a little fish tossed in and have no medical coverage or any rights at all.

In contrast, they showed the fat, smug owners of the shipyard, well dressed, rich as hell, living in good homes, driving expensive imported cars, who have been fighting every attempt to clean up their racket, and winning by bribing local officials and National legislators. They keep claiming that such little money is made off of ship wrecking, that they cannot afford to pay more or give anything like benefits or safety gear to the workers and, besides, aren’t they such good fellows for providing gainful employment for all of the poor slobs out there?

India is a nightmare! They feed off of each other in such an obviously corrupt way, and yet America sends them billions in aide without restriction.