Well, I didn’t meet matt_mcl this weekend (did you make it down, MM?) but the AP photo wire put out a couple of photos I thought worthy of sharing with the SDMB. Mostly 'cos they have me in it.
This is from about 6 AM on the 16th, and this is a few hours later.
My group was stationed at 21st and Pennsylvania NW - not a whole lot of action going on there, unlike 15th and I where the pepper spray was thick. It’s true we didn’t shut down the World Bank conference completely but we delayed it by several hours and kept a lot of the delegates out. We still made our point, I think.
All I wanna do is to thank you, even though I don’t know who you are…
Basically, the point is that ordinary people have the power to make their opinions heard in a concrete way, and that the World Bank and the IMF aren’t untouchable.
All I wanna do is to thank you, even though I don’t know who you are…
That’s your point? The point about ordinary people making their opinions known has been made hundreds of times. So has the one about large organizations being vulnerable. What’s being asked here is this: Why the hell do you feel the need to annoy the IMF in the first place? Do you honestly believe they’re all evil?
Ladies and Gentlemen, the betting parlor is now open. Step right up and place your bets.
This topic is moved to GD within 24 hours: 5:4.
This topic is moved to GD within 1 hour: 3:1.
This topic is moved to GD within 5 minutes: 25:1.
This topic somehow calms down and stays in MPSIMS: 50:1.
This topic heats up and moves to the Pit: 12:1.
This topic gets ignored and sinks like a stone: 17:1.
An asteroid crashes into the earth and kills all life before we finish discussing the IMF and World Bank: 3:2.
JMCJ
“Y’know, I would invite y’all to go feltch a dead goat, but that would be abuse of a perfectly good dead goat and an insult to all those who engage in that practice for fun.” -weirddave, set to maximum flame
I will put all of my money into the asteroid crashing down. This has all of the smell of a debate that will keep churning along until the world ends.
Also, do I get any insurance if the Mir space station comes crashing back to earth and crushes either the IMF or the protestors?
Coming soon to a sig line near you!
Relive the mundane highs, the flaming lows, and the pointless posts in between. Announcing the debut of the best of Mullinator.
What the hell, are you blind?! I’m dead center in the first picture, right-hand side of the second. Angry-looking dude in the green raincoat and the red armband.
All I wanna do is to thank you, even though I don’t know who you are…
Well, no, I don’t believe they’re all evil. But I consider the IMF funding Suharto for most of his reign as Indonesia’s dictator, and them loaning $9 billion to Latin and South America but demanding $12 billion in debt servicing payments alone pretty distasteful.
All I wanna do is to thank you, even though I don’t know who you are…
So you don’t think banks should charge interest on loans? Do you think banks should pay interest on money deposited? Do you understand how banking works?
I think a lot of lefties thought the Seattle WTO protests lookes like fun, and noticed a big international agency that nobody really cares about was having a meeting near them. Voila, instant protest.
I’m your only friend
I’m not your only friend
But I’m a little glowing friend
But really I’m not actually your friend
But I am
While it might be very Zen to say (I’m paraphrasing, but I think this is the gist) “Our point was to show that we can make a point, and our opinion was that we could get on TV if we protested,” there still doesn’t seem to be any particular reason for this protest.
What, precisely, has the World Bank and International Monetary Fund done that you wished to protest? What policies of theirs were you hoping to change?
Or were you just out there to chant and break stuff?
I’m your only friend
I’m not your only friend
But I’m a little glowing friend
But really I’m not actually your friend
But I am
Da Ace is on track here. If you want to protest something, you should make your message known. The only point I saw the protesters prove is that they have the right to jump up and down on street corners and help the cops perfect their pepper-spraying skills. It won’t do you any good to potest if nobody knows why you’re there.
The IMF claims it loans out money to end poverty in developing countries. But the amount of interest it charges exceeds the total amount of loans it disburses. That $12 billion figure I mentioned doesn’t take the loan principal in account. Essentially the countries the IMF loaned $9 billion to are paying back $21 billion. Or trying to.
That’s the reason for the protest. The World Bank and the IMF, far from doing anything to alleviate poverty in the countries it loans money to, are actually making it worse. The conditions for their loans are severe austerity programs that cut into the social spending of the borrower countries and force open the internal markets to exports. The net result is that money flows out of the country back into the World Bank and the foreign companies that benefit from another market opened to their exports. I cannot speak for all who were out there on the 16th, but the group I was part of was out there to protest the fact that world poverty is made worse by institutions like the World Bank, the IMF, and the WTO. And we don’t want to make them change their policies, we want to put a stop to them, period.
All I wanna do is to thank you, even though I don’t know who you are…
Most bank loans end up costing more in interest than the principal. Ever bought a house? Or even a car? That’s how banking works – you’re buying the use of somebody else’s money. If the cost in interest is too steep (and IMF loans are granted well below market rates, from what I understand, and are genrally rewritten as many times as necessary), you don’t need to take out the loan in the first place.
So you don’t want poor countries to be able to get loans from rich countries? Pardon my sarcasm, but shouldn’t that be up to the people in the poor countries, not rich kids from rich countries with some much time on their hands and (clearly) a better idea of how those countries should be run? If the poor countries didn’t want the IMF/WB, they’d just stop taking out loans. Surely that’s up to them, isn’t it?
I’m your only friend
I’m not your only friend
But I’m a little glowing friend
But really I’m not actually your friend
But I am
What a bunch of muddle-headed arrogant losers! I can’t improve on what Ace said, except to say that who in the hell gave you whiny creeps the right to speak for whether a poor country can get a loan or not?
Country is too poor to feed its people.
Large Institution loans them money for food.
Interest from loan grows the fund for other poor countries to take advantage of.
Companies benefit from selling goods to countries who otherwise couldn’t afford the products. Economy of scale streamlines and strengthens supply chain.
Yep, we should stand around and scream at these heartless bastards to stop this immediately. Anyone with money should be forced to give it away and companies should give away their products for free. The entire system will be supported by Good Intentions and repeated verses of Kum-ba-ya.
Oh wait, the original point was to get their pictures in the paper. Never mind.
Olenzero: I’m really trying to keep this out of the Pit (unlike Flang Dang – thanks for the air support, but if I wanted carpet bombing I would have done it myself), but I really am a bit confused.
Is the point that the IMF/WB should forgive all outstanding loans and then go out of business?
Or should they reconsitute themselves as a charity, making zero-interest loans or outright grants?
And where on earth is the money going to come from to pay for either of those things?
That’s my main line of interest. I just don’t think the organizers of the protest thought any further than “Asking Third World countries for money is bad.” Any proof to the contrary would be appreciated.
But now, looking back at your OP:
It looks like your point was to keep them from doing anything at all (or to do it in some country where the police state doesn’t allow protests). I don’t quite get that.
I’m your only friend
I’m not your only friend
But I’m a little glowing friend
But really I’m not actually your friend
But I am
OK, Ace, it’s good to see you’re actually interested in why we did it, not just out to flame someone who doesn’t share your point of view. I don’t expect to find any sort of common ground here but I will certainly do my best to answer your questions. Let me start with something from a previous post of yours:
The problem here is that the majority of those countries (Indonesia being a case in point) the government is highly authoritarian and undemocratic, and that the people who bear the worst brunt of the austerity programs that are a requirement for loan disbursement have very little, if any, say in whether their country accepts or rejects loans from the IMF or the World Bank.
So…
I myself would argue the first option, only because of something I stated before - the IMF and the World Bank take back far more than they disburse in loans. And that isn’t just for some countries - it’s for every country they loan to. The net effect is an upward flow of funds. Money flows into the World Bank and the IMF and stays there. It doesn’t go out as increased funds to other countries that may need it.
As for where the money would come from if the IMF and the World Bank didn’t exist, it relates to the larger question of how the world is run and who has a say in that. The majority of people across the world (not just in poor Third World countries but here in the US as well) don’t have that kind of say. The protests (which were organized by many of the same people who were in Seattle, by the way) were an attempt to have that say in the affairs of the world. The people who were out there were against the IMF and the World Bank for many of the reasons I’ve cited, and the only real effective way of making our opinions known was to disrupt the meetings of these two institutions and render those meetings as ineffective as possible. The delegates wouldn’t have cared less about our opinions otherwise.
I know that sounds like a vague answer so I’ll try to sum up in a more concrete statement: It should be up to the working people of the world’s countries to decide how to fund development and relieve poverty, not the representatives of some large corporation whose sole interests are the corporation’s profits and the bottom line.
All I wanna do is to thank you, even though I don’t know who you are…
I have quite a bit of sympathy for what you said (all the stuff I snipped), but I did want to add one thought to that last staement.
It would be a nice thing if the poor people of the world could decide for themselves how to help themselves out of poverty (assuming they’d be the best experts on the subject, which isn’t entirely clear). But, in this as in anything else, if you’re asking someone for money, you have to live with the conditions he puts on the donation/loan. You can walk away, sure, but “he who pays the piper calls the tune.”
Looks what is needed is a different international loan agency, one funded by donations and utterly non-profit (not that the IMF/W make any profits). Anybody got a few spare billion to start one up? (Bill Gates might be out a job soon, think he’s up for it?)
I’m your only friend
I’m not your only friend
But I’m a little glowing friend
But really I’m not actually your friend
But I am
I’m dead center in the first picture, right-hand side of the second. Angry-looking dude in the green raincoat and the red armband.
