As I pointed out, the perfectness and oneness is us asking is the Father providing, it’s the same thing because we are one with the Father. So one might think of this as a perfect just in time inventory system. But is it also a teaching tool, recognizing our real needs, and trust that the Father will give the correct item if we happened to get it wrong (as the Father knows things the Son does not)
For instance I ask the Father for a boat because I need to cross a river. He makes a tree fall and I cross on that instead. My initial asking also went along the lines is I would really like a boat, and perhaps I could use that for other things. I needed to learn my real need, to get to the other side, which the Father will decide how. He is teaching me what is my real needs and my real intention on things I ask. I am also growing in trusting Him, learning that He knows what is best for me.
I would not say for his actions but for his intent and what he harbored in his heart.
You could say ‘punished’, but that really does not exist with God as we know it in the world - God does not punish. He was bearing the consequence of his departure of the way of Love for his learning and correction (and no further). Job is a excellent example of this as well, where God uses that to teach Job, Satan, Job’s children and the community that Job lives in what He needs to.
You are taking a very extreme example here. Not that it has not happened, but a unloving act does not honor God, however the child must learn what Love is, part of that is getting Love. Once the child learns what Love is and actually performs it in oneness with the Father, yes it honors God, What brought him/her to it is what was needed for the child to learn what love is.
So if Cain had thought “Huh, my gift of fruit wasn’t enough; I shall kill my brother and offer his body up to God to make up for it.”, then, with his intent and heart pure and true, that sacrifice would have been accepted?
I seem to keep asking this question in a number of different ways. Really, all I’m looking for is an answer, not the repeated explanations of the answer. Is it a yes or no on human sacrifice, honestly meant, as honouring God?
You are explicitly contradicted by the Bible (again).
[QUOTE=Genesis 4 10-16]
10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”
13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
[/QUOTE]
Cain refers to it as a punishment, and God does not disagree with him even when he disagrees with him on another part of his point.
Er, no. Satan does all the teaching there.
When it comes to a perfect system, there are no extreme examples. Infinity is infinitely larger than a large distance.
Only if it was in line with what the Father would do, which is Love for all His children.
Nothing is yes or no with God in a physical sense, that’s part of the deal there are no hard and fast rules with God due to physical events. Abortion is human sacrifice but it is the intent that matters, not the act. Again spiritual =/= physical so that is why you are not getting a yes or no answer, you are askign for a physical definition, God does not work with that.
Cain is a child, A child’s concept of punishment is not the same as an adults.
God is and shows Himself in complete control over everything here. Yes He uses Satan in this but it is God doing the schooling to everyone. Also Satan fails in his lesson if Satan was actually teaching.
Perhaps, rather than trying to ban abortions, politicians and advocacy groups should be trying to get the fetus’ remains in order to dedicate them. Then it’d be fine.
Biblically, you’re wrong. God corrects him on the points he is wrong about. He doesn’t correct him on that one. To God, it is a punishment.
You’re incorrect. Satan successfully teaches God, Job, and some of Job’s friends. Job’s friends teach Job. God gets taught, but he does no teaching himself. As for “God uses Satan”, in my quick reading I see no particular reason from that book to not assume it’s the other way around. Satan gets everything that he wants out of the situation. God doesn’t. It’s not the latter I would credit as the controller of the situation.
Have you ever read this book, as it does not seem like it. Just read the last chapter, major stuff there.
Job repents (so God got Job to learn something - Score God)
Job’s friends are convicted of their sin and come to Job so a sin offering can be made (so they learn something) (Triple score God)
Satan failed (score God)
(and much more, but that would involve more then the last chapter)
Yes - I read it in order to respond to your points.
Job is successfully taught by Satan’s machinations and his friends that God is worthy of scorn for the negative actions he allows to happen. God does not refute that point. His explanation is that he’s powerful and smart, more so than Job, and therefore Job doesn’t get to question him. In the face of God coming down to threaten him, and to point out that in fact no matter how much Job might wish things were different, it isn’t at all possible, Job accepts his tribulations as something outside of his control. He doesn’t repent, that I can see, merely realises that cursing an all-powerful being out is a fairly stupid thing to do.
But no mention of them learning a lesson is made. As you point out, it isn’t them making the offering - Job is doing so. Your point for the last while has been that an offering, to be accepted, must be done with honest intent. If it is Job, and not the friends, who must make the offering, then it must be because those friends could not do it with honest intent - and that therefore no lesson has been taught.
Job’s friends successfully teach Job about God’s actions, as I previously said.
Satan successfully got Job to scorn God - his stated aim. He fails the first time, but then succeeds in his goal. Satan also taught God that Job would scorn him, if put through tribulations; he succeeds again. Satan gets everything he wants out of the whole situation.
[QUOTE=Job 7 11-21]
11
“Therefore I will not keep silent;
I will speak out in the anguish of my spirit,
I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
12
Am I the sea, or the monster of the deep,
that you put me under guard?
13
When I think my bed will comfort me
and my couch will ease my complaint,
14
even then you frighten me with dreams
and terrify me with visions,
15
so that I prefer strangling and death,
rather than this body of mine.
16
I despise my life; I would not live forever.
Let me alone; my days have no meaning.
17
“What is mankind that you make so much of them,
that you give them so much attention,
18
that you examine them every morning
and test them every moment?
19
Will you never look away from me,
or let me alone even for an instant?
20
If I have sinned, what have I done to you,
you who see everything we do?
Why have you made me your target?
Have I become a burden to you?
21
Why do you not pardon my offenses
and forgive my sins?
For I will soon lie down in the dust;
you will search for me, but I will be no more.”
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Job 9 14-20]
14
“How then can I dispute with him?
How can I find words to argue with him?
15
Though I were innocent, I could not answer him;
I could only plead with my Judge for mercy.
16
Even if I summoned him and he responded,
I do not believe he would give me a hearing.
17
He would crush me with a storm
and multiply my wounds for no reason.
18
He would not let me catch my breath
but would overwhelm me with misery.
19
If it is a matter of strength, he is mighty!
And if it is a matter of justice, who can challenge him?
20
Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me;
if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Job 10 1-7]
1 “I loathe my very life;
therefore I will give free rein to my complaint
and speak out in the bitterness of my soul.
2
I say to God: Do not declare me guilty,
but tell me what charges you have against me.
3
Does it please you to oppress me,
to spurn the work of your hands,
while you smile on the plans of the wicked?
4
Do you have eyes of flesh?
Do you see as a mortal sees?
5
Are your days like those of a mortal
or your years like those of a strong man,
6
that you must search out my faults
and probe after my sin—
7
though you know that I am not guilty
and that no one can rescue me from your hand?
[/QUOTE]
To borrow a phrase, and much more.
That is not scorning God, or cursing God. But it is also in the wrong order, so does not even make sense. What you cite happens after Satan has a claim on Job, the sin must be before it for Satan to get a claim.
The actual sin that allows Satan a foothold is Job accepting the sin of Job’s children; Sins are transferable and also generational. This is evident in Job 1. Job’s custom is to sacrifice a sin offering just incase his children sinned by cursing God. Job finds out that his children were partying (where they seem to curse God) when they died, yet has no animals left (due to Satan) to offer for a sin offering, so is Job desires to relieve the sin of his children and there is no other place for it to go but on him, which gives him over to Satan and allows the torment.
To sum up the passages I quoted; “Why don’t you leave me alone?” is scorning God. “If I were to call on God to hear me, he would not, and would attack me for no reason, and force my body to perjure myself”, is scorning God. “Are you happy that you’re harming me and letting people who’ve actually done wrong go free?” is scorning God.
If those things are not scorning God - I’m not entirely sure what would be, frankly.
Nope. Job sacrifices because of the possibility of that, not in any indication that they do. And he can’t take on the sin of his children when his animals are killed because his kids have been killed too. Nor is there any mention of generational sin. Nor is there any mention of being able to take on the sin of another.
Not that it matters to the fact that Job scorns God, as Satan taught God he would.
No this is not correct and that is important and telling. Satan could not touch Job after the first meeting with God. It is only after the second, when Job learns of his children’s passing (and most likely tries to absolve them of their sin) that God allows Satan to strike Job’s Flesh. Before this Satan could not touch Job which is very clear.
Now, now, obviously God’s currency is pre-2002 Vatican Lira. So at about 518Euro worth of assets you’d be in the club.
…and how!
Oh, and his kid Solomon was no slouch either. Hey, it is good to be the king! The Bible got that dead right.
Oh, but recent news indicate there are a whole lot of Christians who believe that enabling your paying customers to sin is almost as bad as doing it yourself…
Hey, learning that it’s pointless to upbraid the superior being is learning all the same. Sort of
Yes, he could. He could kill his children, kill his animals, and destroy his house.
Besides that point; if Satan could not touch Job after the first meeting with God, then God was lying to Satan. As God says; everything that Job has is in Satan’s power.
(not at all supported by anything in the text)
Ah, you’re actually correct on this point; God didn’t give Satan leave to injure Job himself until the second time.
I’ll amend my statement, given that, thend. God explicitly gives leave to Satan to do what he will to Job - with the exception being not to harm Job’s flesh - before any of that happens.
This is yet another episode of The kanicbird Show and while everybody seems to be enjoying rehashing the same issues you have a hundred times before, there has been substantial drift from the topic of the thread. It’s too late to ask that you take it elsewhere, but as the OP I wanted to make that point. Carry on.
See, that’s the God of the Jews. We’re talking about the God of the Christians. Different guys altogether, though the Jewish God still gets a few licks in when Jesus is too high to stop him.
In other words since God created Satan, and let him exist to harm his children,and then punish them for his allowing Satan to exist he wanted evil in the world? also why would God have to bargain with Satan and kill Job’s family to prove something to Satan, It just doesn’t add up to me.
Now, now, obviously God’s currency is pre-2002 Vatican Lira. So at about 518Euro worth of assets you’d be in the club.