the big SELF DETERMINATION thread: Catalonia, Calexit, Brexit, Civil War, & Revolutionary War

It’s Joey, because he sucks at card games!

Seriously though, one important factor about this secession movement: there is absolutely no legal method for this. And rightfully so - the ability for any given chunk of territory to unilaterally secede from the nation it is a part of just because that nation is… Well, kind of silly. I mean, I’m sure if you count “the land owned by a SovCit family” as a “territory”, you could get 100% of people involved on board with the idea of seceding. And it would obviously be nonsense.

In the case of larger territories, particularly larger territories with cultural differences, there is slightly more legitimacy. I haven’t really given that case too much thought. But we can edge out some edge cases at least.

How is that different from the Electoral College, which also disproportionately empowers small groups on the national stage?

This boils down in a way to the age-old debate about whether to enshrine a right to rebel. It’s a meaningless issue, in a way, because a rebellion is inherently extralegal, and ‘rights’ to rebel or declare independence never depend on the laws of the power being overthrown.

We only see past historical revolts as ‘right’ because they won. There are many which failed which have been ignored and forgotten because of that. Ultimately, the ones with the ‘right’ to rebel, revolt, or secede are those that achieve it and hold onto it. It’s also the right of the previous regime to fight back.

I wonder if there would be people recognising the right of the Confederacy to secede if they had won?

So you would ignore the secessionist voice in favor of the anti-secessionists. One group is going to be under a government they reject, so why not the smaller one?

Individual people and arbitrary groups shouldn’t have the right to self determination, because they are part of a larger group and because it leads to absurdities like the Swiss cheese neighbourhoods, or Baarle-Hertog.

But Catalonia, Scotland and Quebeque are usually regarded as nations, ie a people sharing some or all of a common language, religion, culture, history, and ethnic origins. This is completely different to any US states, except perhaps Hawaii. It’s not about a right for any group to rebel, it’s whether separate nations should have the right to determine their own future and even declare independence if they wish.

Talking about the CSA’s secession as an issue of self-determination is frankly appalling: it only makes sense if your operating premise is that black people lack selves to determine. The entire point of the CSA was to prevent black people from achieving self-determination.

I find the question of secession morally neutral, as states, unlike slaves, lack selves. In any society, we should be concerned about increasing the ability of individual people to determine their own fates. If a particular division of a nation state will lead to more people being able to set their desired course in life, it’s a good thing; if it’ll lead to fewer people being able to do so (or will result in severe restrictions on a few), it’s a bad thing.

I’m not arguing that. I don’t think the CSA had any right to secede, period. But if history were different, and the CSA had fought off the Union attempt to re-establish control successfully, I don’t doubt there were have been after-the-fact justifications for the South seceding.

What about the native Indian nations within the US? Says here there are 567 Federally recognised Indian nations.

http://www.ncai.org/about-tribes

First of all, I absolutely reject the idea that ‘majority rules’ - literal democracy is a horrible form of government that leads directly to awful abuses, what is called ‘democracy’ today is actually more correctly called a ‘democratic republic’. People have rights, and things like the US constitution and UN Declaration of human rights are an explicit acknowledgement that simple majority rule is not a good governing principle. I am absolutely fine with integrating schools, ending slavery, removing religious tests for office, preventing voter disenfranchisement, and other ‘mean’ actions that go against the will of a local majority.

Secondly, your ‘larger group’ is only a larger group because you’ve artificially selected an area where they’re the majority. If part of the old Confederacy wants to secede and bring back slavery, the idea that it’s perfectly fine and that the US and it’s massively larger group would be wrong to object to someone enslaving American citizens from their own homes purely because the Neo Confederacy can draw a particular line on the map and claim a majority in it is completely stupid. Is that really what you want to defend? Because that’s what your position actually entails.

From your link:

“Tribal nations have been recognized as sovereign since their first interaction with European settlers. The United States continues to recognize this unique political status and relationship.”

Certainly sounds like what I was talking about, and it says they have a unique political status with self government etc. So could one of these nations declare independence from the US? What do people think about the idea?

The matter in Canada has already been put to the Supreme Court, and unilateral secession of Quebec (or any province) is not legal. However, were the people of Quebec to clearly and unambiguously vote to separate, which they’ve had a chance to do twice and have chosen not to, the government of Canada would negotiate the terms of secession.

Canadian law requires it to be a CLEAR majority on a CLEAR question, which has been an issue in part referenda, neither of which really clearly said “Do you want Quebec to be a separate country?”

This is the sort of issue that has no clear answer. It’s a case by case thing.

California and Puerto Rico are much the same. Puerto Rico has voted several times as to what the citizens there want to do, and it’s not at all clear what that is, with the status quo seemingly the default position. Recently a small majority has voted to join the union as a state, but it’s hardly a clear majority. California, on the other hand, is like Texas in that there is a very small fringe group of nuts who want to secede for various reasons, so no one takes either ‘movement’ seriously except when it’s for political reasons.

Scotland, Catalonia and several other places in Europe that also have secessionist movements are completely different in that many of them still identify as their own separate nation and people from the larger country that originally absorbed them. While I see WHY Spain doesn’t want to entertain this wrt Catalonia (or the Basque region either for that matter), the way they handled it was probably a mistake. As for the OP, like you said I think this is a case by case basis, not something you can paint with a broad brush. Scotland certainly should have been allowed to vote on whether they stay in GB, and while I think the Brexit vote was a disaster it seems like they should have allowed it (just done it differently). Catalonia? Yeah, I think they should be allowed to vote to decide what they really want to do, and that the vote should have some sort of meaning.

Yeah, the whole idea of lumping every secessionist idea together into one pot for a yeah or nay" vote makes no seen at all. Sometimes it might be a good thing, sometimes not. Best to handle each case on its merits.

It’s also used as a talking point by a lot of people who probably would not vote ‘yes’ on a secession measure that stood a chance of winning. It’s easy to say ‘yeah, we should just get out and stop paying you Red State fascists’ or ‘yeah, we should get out and stop letting you Blue State communists run our lives’ but a lot harder to say ‘yes I’m in favor of doing all of the hard work involved in a secession movement and suffering through the concessions we’d have to make to make it work’.

I mean, Calexit would realistically have to figure out how to handle the fact that CA’s water supply is dependent on an interstate compact that would vanish if they weren’t a US state, and how do deal with the fact that the US government owns 45% of the land in the state directly. Also, while CA is technically a donor state to the Federal Government, they get back something like $.99 for every dollar they spend so it’s not clear that they’d be better off financially (especially since social security accounts for a large part of the difference). But you don’t have to mess with any of that if you’re just blowing off steam and talking about it.

The heart of this question is how you define a nation state. Nations are an identity constructed from several ingredients: territory, language, religion, culture and traditions. A Nation State is a political construction defined by territory which is sovereign. Usually they have a constitution that declares how they are to be governed within their borders. Nation states have international relations and trading relationships with other states. Some states are are part of larger formations defined by treaties. Some states exist within or are dependent on other states. It gets messy.

The nation state is a fairly recent political invention that really got going in the 18th and 19th centuries. The big question is whether a state is viable in terms of its economy and its ability to safeguard its borders from incursions by other states, define its own constitution and laws. There have been times when small states were common and, at other times there was a tendency towards the formation of larger states by unification of smaller states. Germany and Italy are examples of quite young nation states formed in the 19th century. The UK is a much older nation state formed by a the unification of the crowns of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales at different times.

The internal political dynamics of nation states can be either toward unification absorbing others into a larger state. Or towards seccession, spliting up into smaller independent states. The US, is an interesting example. Formed by seccession from the British state, it went through several phases of expansion by conquest of neighbouring countries like Mexico and Spanish colonial possessions such as California. Also by the outright purchase of territory from other nation states, notably from France and Russia. It also grew by the annexation of the territory from native American tribes and it had external territories campaign to be included as states in the Union. This expansion went into reverse in the 1860s when the Confederate southern states tried to secceed from the Union causing a bloody civil war. It is a unusal example because it was not really near any other nation states that were also growing strongly, save for Canada.

Europe is fairly crowded with nation states and it has many examples of expansion and seccession. The borders between states often change in war and in peace. The internal political structure of nation states is sometimes tolerant of regions with their own national indentity and sometimes they dominant nation within a nation states tries to supress the national identify of other national identities in order to control the development of seccessionist movements.

The UK nation state went through a worrying period when the Scottish Nationalists sought a mandate for independence from the UK for Scotland. Canada has had the same with Quebec. In the past days Spain is heading for a constitutional crisis with the Catalans. On a larger scale, the UK has recently voted to leave the EU, which although it is a treaty organisation rather than a large nation state, it nonetheless is percieved to be threat to UK national soveriegnty.

It is possible for a nation state to split into smaller states amicably. Czechoslovakia is an example, that is now the Czech Republic mand Slovakia. But the divorce settlement can be acrimonious and difficult. Large states have integrated economies that are often very difficult to seperate. Scotland leaving the UK would have been a hugely expensive nightmare after 400 years of economic and political integration.

Seccessionist movements is not entirely an internal debate. Rival nations can support an independece movement in order to undermine the integrity of a rival state so that it becomes weaker. The Soviets used this approach as does Russia today. On the hand, for a nation intent on expansion at the expense of its neighbours, support for an oppressed minority can be an excuse for intervention and annexation. This tends to be a feature of states that share borders, but there are other ways a nation state can extend the territory it controls and empires and colonies are the obvious example. These have left behind a mish mash of nations trapped within borders hisorically defined by long gone colonial powers. The constitutional instabilities these leave behind are responsible for many wars across the world.

The sovereign nation state, is however, all we have got in terms of a political unit. There are some super states, such as the US, Russia, China and India. But the bigger the state, the more severe their problems if the government is not able keep the country constitutionally stable. But even quite small states have constitutional issues. There are big economic treaty organisations such as the EU that have soft power, but holding a consensus together is difficult and the political tide may turn towards exit as it has with the UK. These big federations tend to favour small states that do not have the crital economic mass to form a viable nation state. A lot of the EU countries have very small economies and are highly dependent on the much larger economic powers such as Germany, France, Italy and the UK. I guess the same is true of the US, where the economies of the Northern industrial states, California and Texas are far larger than many other states.

Neither the Catalans, the Scots nor the Quebecois are oppressed minorities seeking independence. They are quite a big chunk of the economy of Spain, UK and Canada. Independence would be a Pyrrhric victory that would damage both sides economically. It is all very well wrapping yourself in a flag and proclaiming you yearn for freedom, but sentiment is no substitute for a prosperity. People underestimate how difficult it is divide a nation state that has an integrated economy.

The Spanish government has seriously mishandled the Catalan independence question and is heading for a constitutional crisis. However, everyone knows how bad it could get because of the history of Basque seperatism in Spain. Constitutional questions require huge amounts of political capital for any government to make progress and it just got a lot harder. It looks as if the Catalans went for a simple direct approach to solving a difficult political problem. Referendums are dangerous political devices if they are not handled carefully. They are the equivalent of proclaiming a divorce by simply changing the locks on the front door. :dubious:

Has this ever happened even once? Has part of a modern nation ever separated by “peacefully working within the system?”

Czechoslovakia.

It would have happened in Scotland had the vote gone that way, the procedure was agreed upon and it would have happened peacefully.

I agree. In starting this thread, I was mostly hoping to hear the thoughts and analysis of other posters on when it might be a good thing or not. Would it be good for Catalonia? What criteria or factors do you think would / should influence the answer to that question?

Canada, Australia, and New Zealand all seceded from the UK entirely peacefully. India did the same, there was a bit more violence (largely from the UK) and threat of violence but no independence war/revolution/civil war. The Philippines separated from the US after WW2 (and would have earlier if not for the war). A number of other former colonies achieved independence after WW2 with varying degrees of violence - some had outright wars, but a number went peacefully. The Soviet Union had a coup that overthrew the central government, and then former states split off from Russia without any war. The Czech Republic and Slovakia split up peacefully. Scotland didn’t get the votes needed to secede, but there is no indication that the UK would have blocked Scottish secession had it gained enough support.