The Border Fence Is Not a "Berlin Wall"

[CBEscapee]

[QUOTE=seenidog]
Maybe I am off the wall (or the fence) but the way to target this is to target the employers of illegal aliens, when the jobs dry up, then guess what? No more free health care, no more welfare, no more benefits of being a tax paying citizen without being a tax paying citizen, the traffic will slow down considerably. Shoot, it would be like being in Mexico.
[/QUOTE]

There is universal health care in Mexico. There are jobs in Mexico. The main driving force is the wage differential.

[CBEscapee]

[QUOTE=Frank]
Far as I know, Mexican citizens do not need a visa to enter the United States. Am I wrong?
[/QUOTE]

Yes

[Contrapuntal]

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
Yes
[/QUOTE]
A point he made himself, with citation, in post #33.

[CBEscapee]

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
A point he made himself, with citation, in post #33.
[/QUOTE]

Yes I saw that after I posted. Apologies.

[DrDeth]

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
. Many Mexicans hold a Border Crossing Card which allows them to visit the border area only.
Right now the waiting period at the US Consulate in Guadalajara just to be interviewed for a visa with no guarantee of recieving it, is 8 weeks.
[/QUOTE]

Is the “Border Crossing Card” a Visa?

How about tourist Visas?

Don’t US citizens need a visa or something if they are going anywhere but the border tourist areas?

[John_Mace]

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
Right now the waiting period at the US Consulate in Guadalajara just to be interviewed for a visa with no guarantee of recieving it, is 8 weeks.
[/QUOTE]

So what? Maybe if it weren’t that case that “nearly half the estimated 12 million undocumented foreigners in the United States entered on bona fide U.S. visas – and simply never left”, then it would be easier. That’s not our fault. I think plenty of visas are issued:

The U.S. State Department issued nearly 5.4 million temporary, nonimmigrant visas in fiscal year 2005, and about 17 percent went to Mexicans.

Seems like Mexicans get more than their fair share of entry visas. Also, most who apply do get one, even if it it takes a little work:

Of course, getting a visa in the first place is a challenge. Lines at the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City form before dawn. Applicants pay $100 for an appointment, bringing proof of employment, savings and family and community roots.

Still, Embassy spokeswoman Judith Bryan said most applicants are approved – about 70 percent.

I don’t see a significant problem with that.

[CBEscapee]

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Is the “Border Crossing Card” a Visa?
[/QUOTE]

Yep, but it won’t allow you to legally visit relatives in any other part of the country which is what JM alledges.

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
How about tourist Visas?
[/QUOTE]

What about them? You mean that are they expensive and difficult to obtain? Or that many who pay a $100usd non-refundable application fee are denied it?

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Don’t US citizens need a visa or something if they are going anywhere but the border tourist areas?
[/QUOTE]

They get a tourist pass. Far different from a visa. All you have to do is show proof of US citizenship. Obtained upon entering the country whether you cross at the border or at another destination further inland.

[CBEscapee]

Upon search I find that the Border Crossing Card is not considered a visa.

Mexicans entering the United States with a border crossing card at the southwestern border who intend to limit their stay to 72 hours or less are not required to obtain a visa or to complete Form I-94 if they limit their travel to within a perimeter that is generally 25 miles from the border but that may extend up to 75 miles in Arizona

The above is from a pdf file from the GAO. I’m not sure how to link to it.

[Contrapuntal]

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
There is universal health care in Mexico. There are jobs in Mexico. The main driving force is the wage differential.
[/QUOTE]
What are your thoughts on Mexico’s president stating that the fence is akin to the Berlin wall, and that it is an “embarrassment” to the U.S.

Is it an embarrasssment to Mexico that it’s economy cannot provide for it’s citizens?

Is it an embarassment to Mexico that the overwhelming majority of illegal drugs entering the U.S does so across the U.S. border?

Is the border between Mexico and Guatemala as open as the president of Mexico believes the border between the U.S. and Mexico should be?

If not, is that an embarrasment to Mexico?

[CBEscapee]

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
What are your thoughts on Mexico’s president stating that the fence is akin to the Berlin wall, and that it is an “embarrassment” to the U.S.
[/QUOTE]

Let’s see…the US government will spend several billion dollars on something that won’t work in order to look tough on the illegal alien problem in the eyes of some xenophobic/racist/paranoid segment of US society instead of looking for a real solution to the issue. Yeah, I guess I agree with Fox.

Is it an embarrasssment to Mexico that it’s economy cannot provide for it’s citizens?

Embarrassment? No. Frustrating? Yes. Wasn’t NAFTA supposed to help change that?

Is it an embarassment to Mexico that the overwhelming majority of illegal drugs entering the U.S does so across the U.S. border?

Why would that be embarrassing? You guys are the ones with the insatiable appetite for recreational drugs. That reflects on your country not ours. Don’t you find it embarrassing that the so-called “War on Drugs” has wasted untold billions of your money and has achieved nothing? And whose border are they crossing? Oh yeah…yours!! Doesn’t say much for your law enforcement efforts, does it? There wouldn’t be any of your officials taking bribes to look the other way? No, of course not. Don’t you find it embarrassing that crack houses fill your inner cities? Wasn’t the mayor of your capitol city convicted for drug use? Amigo, I think you should be embarrassed not me.

You think so little of us that you need a wall to keep us out of your country but expect us to waste scarce resources better used elsewhere and put our lives on the line to keep your citizens from getting high? Fuck that shit.

Is the border between Mexico and Guatemala as open as the president of Mexico believes the border between the U.S. and Mexico should be?

Our government hasn’t called for an open border. It has asked for a negotiated agreement that will alleviate the problem for both countries. Guest workers filling the demand for jobs in the US.

Did you know that the crackdown at the México-Guatemala border was done at the request of Bush, with promises of an immigration agreement that he never bothered to honor? The main reason most of the Central Americans are coming into Mexico is not to work anyway. They are on their way to your country. You see, it is much cheaper for the US to pay Mexico to repatriate these people back into Guatemala than it is for the US to fly them there from the USA.

Do you know that there are many legal guest workers in Mexico from Guatemala?

[Contrapuntal]

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
Let’s see…the US government will spend several billion dollars on something that won’t work in order to look tough on the illegal alien problem in the eyes of some xenophobic/racist/paranoid segment of US society instead of looking for a real solution to the issue. Yeah, I guess I agree with Fox.
[/QUOTE]
I doubt seriously whether any money will be spent. I think it is an election year gambit. I am not wiling to accept your characterization of those who want immigrants from Mexico to follow legal protocols as a “xenophobic/racist/paranoid segment.” Have you anything to support that rather sweeping generalization other than your own diphragm? If as many as twelve million (some say more) aliens had illegally entered Mexoco, what would Fox say?

Do you agree with Fox that the wall is akin to the Berlin Wall?

Embarrassment? No. Frustrating? Yes. Wasn’t NAFTA supposed to help change that?

I have no idea. Is it the fault of the U.S. that it didn’t? Has Mexico no responsibility for any of this shit?

Why would that be embarrassing?

It characterizes Mexicans as the most prolific drug dealers on the planet.

You guys are the ones with the insatiable appetite for recreational drugs. That reflects on your country not ours.

Ah yes. Supply side economics. Just giving the people what they want. None of your business, really. All moral weight is on the buyer. The seller is just providing a service.

Is it egal in Mexico to proved any service at all, no matter what? Is it legal in Mexico to pimp children? Is it legal in Mexico to sell heroin? Is it legal in Mexico to smuggle heroin across the border? You say it isn’t? But somehow these smugglers are blameless? Interesting.

Or could it be that the Mexican economy is at least partially propped up by the estimated 25 to 30 billion dollars that such smuggling brings into your country?

Don’t you find it embarrassing that the so-called “War on Drugs” has wasted untold billions of your money and has achieved nothing?

Yes. The war on drugs was and is stupid.

And whose border are they crossing? Oh yeah…yours!! Doesn’t say much for your law enforcement efforts, does it?

My understanding is that borders are common. If you can provide a cite for me where anyone has come into the U.S. from Mexico without crossing the Mexican border I will reconsider my position.

There wouldn’t be any of your officials taking bribes to look the other way? No, of course not.

I suspect there are. What percentage of illegal immigrantion from Mexico would that account for, do you think? Ballpark figure is fine.

Don’t you find it embarrassing that crack houses fill your inner cities? Wasn’t the mayor of your capitol city convicted for drug use? Amigo, I think you should be embarrassed not me.

That is embarrassing. And if the President of the United States had scolded Mexico for such things, he would be out of line. Has that happened, to your knowledge?

You think so little of us that you need a wall to keep us out of your country but expect us to waste scarce resources better used elsewhere and put our lives on the line to keep your citizens from getting high? Fuck that shit.

I confess to being confused by this. Are you suggesting that Mexico, a country with universal health care, and (I assume) plenty of jobs, only there are better ones elsewhwere, cannot allocate resources to prevent its citizens from violating U.S. drug laws and immigration laws at the rate of thousands a day? Mayhap the priority stack needs to be re-shuffled.

Our government hasn’t called for an open border. It has asked for a negotiated agreement that will alleviate the problem for both countries. Guest workers filling the demand for jobs in the US.

The problem for our country is that millions and millions of Mexicans have already entered this country illegally. I’m not sure how a guest worker program will solve that. Do you suppose that if we made the process more amenable to you, that they would be willing to go back home and start the process over? How about if the U.S. promised not to hold previous violation of immigration statutes against them?

[CBEscapee]

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]

It characterizes Mexicans as the most prolific drug dealers on the planet.
[/QUOTE]

I believe that honor goes to the Colombians.

Ah yes. Supply side economics. Just giving the people what they want. None of your business, really. All moral weight is on the buyer. The seller is just providing a service.

Ah yes. Here’s the moral righteousness of the Americans. Tell me, Mr. Morality, how many innocent people die everyday because of your appetite for drugs? I’m willing to bet more people die due to it being illegal than die from drug overdoses.

Is it legal in Mexico to pimp children?

Of course not and if you are trying to equate the 2 then you’re a moron.

Or could it be that the Mexican economy is at least partially propped up by the estimated 25 to 30 billion dollars that such smuggling brings into your country?

Yes and let me thank all of your junkies for their support.

That is embarrassing. And if the President of the United States had scolded Mexico for such things, he would be out of line. Has that happened, to your knowledge?

Excuse me? Didn’t you say borders are common? So how does Fox’ comments on what is happening on our common border equate to commenting on something not even remotely related?

I confess to being confused by this. Are you suggesting that Mexico, a country with universal health care, and (I assume) plenty of jobs, only there are better ones elsewhwere, cannot allocate resources to prevent its citizens from violating U.S. drug laws and immigration laws at the rate of thousands a day? Mayhap the priority stack needs to be re-shuffled.

Whoa… tell me again why Mexico should spend one fucking peso to enforce US laws???

[Frank]

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
Whoa… tell me again why Mexico should spend one fucking peso to enforce US laws???
[/QUOTE]

I have to say, this is a very good question.

[marshmallow]

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]

Ah yes. Supply side economics. Just giving the people what they want. None of your business, really. All moral weight is on the buyer. The seller is just providing a service.
[/quote]
I’m pretty clueless about economics in general, but wouldn’t this be referred to as supply meeting demand? Unless you’re suggesting the mean Mexicans are forcing the Americans to do drugs.

[Frank]

I’ll also ask: if Mexico is expected to enforce U.S. laws, why is Duane “The Dog” Chapman not sitting in a Mexican jail for bail-jumping even as we speak?

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

[QUOTE=John Mace]
Seems like Mexicans get more than their fair share of entry visas. Also, most who apply do get one, even if it it takes a little work:
I don’t see a significant problem with that.
[/QUOTE]

I think you kinda missed the boat on this one, John.

We know it isn’t that hard to disappear into the hinterlands, once you’ve entered the US on a temporary visa. Your own cite alleges that perhaps half the undocumented illegals in the US entered legally and chose to stay.

Then we have a quote from the US Consulate spokesperson who suggests that 70% of Mexican visa applicants are approved.

Now, let us introduce a third fact. 800,000(ish) Mexicans illegally cross the border annually.

This doesn’t quite fit with the rest of our data, does it? Either 800,000 Mexicans don’t have the patience to wait eight weeks for a visa (but are happy enough to walk across miles of desert or hand their life savings over to some shifty fellow with a truck who offers to sneak them across)… OR Judith Bryan, spokesperson for the United States Department of State is blowing a quantity of sunshine up your arse.

I’ll let you decide which is more likely.

[DanBlather]

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
I think you kinda missed the boat on this one, John.

We know it isn’t that hard to disappear into the hinterlands, once you’ve entered the US on a temporary visa. Your own cite alleges that perhaps half the undocumented illegals in the US entered legally and chose to stay.

Then we have a quote from the US Consulate spokesperson who suggests that 70% of Mexican visa applicants are approved.

Now, let us introduce a third fact. 800,000(ish) Mexicans illegally cross the border annually.

This doesn’t quite fit with the rest of our data, does it? Either 800,000 Mexicans don’t have the patience to wait eight weeks for a visa (but are happy enough to walk across miles of desert or hand their life savings over to some shifty fellow with a truck who offers to sneak them across)… OR Judith Bryan, spokesperson for the United States Department of State is blowing a quantity of sunshine up your arse.

I’ll let you decide which is more likely.
[/QUOTE]
Is it 800,000 unique people or 800,000 crossings? Also, maybe those are the people that can’t get a visa because they have criminal records or overstayed their previous visa.

[CBEscapee]

[QUOTE=DanBlather]
Is it 800,000 unique people or 800,000 crossings? Also, maybe those are the people that can’t get a visa because they have criminal records or overstayed their previous visa.
[/QUOTE]

Well that will be one hell of a lot of criminals then, wouldn’t it. Kind of fits the stereotype of Mexicans many of you hold. And if I’m not mistaken it has been very hard to know whether someone overstays their visa. When you leave the US by land there is no one to check you out.

One thing that I haven’t seen mentioned is that since the US has increased it’s border control operations, people that before would go to the US to work seasonally for just a few months started staying because the increased difficulty and expense of re-entering discouraged them from returning to Mexico.

So maybe the wall will ironically share some characteristics in a sense with the Berlin Wall.

[CBEscapee]

[QUOTE=mstay]
I’m pretty clueless about economics in general, but wouldn’t this be referred to as supply meeting demand? Unless you’re suggesting the mean Mexicans are forcing the Americans to do drugs.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah and the mean Mexicans also force the poor Americans into hiring them. Demand fuels supply but not much appears to be done to remove the demand in either the job or drug markets. It’s all the mean Mexicans fault.

[Contrapuntal]

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
I believe that honor goes to the Colombians.
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. I amend my statement to “among the most prolific.” Any shame there?

Ah yes. Here’s the moral righteousness of the Americans. Tell me, Mr. Morality, how many innocent people die everyday because of your appetite for drugs? I’m willing to bet more people die due to it being illegal than die from drug overdoses.

Bullshit. You stated that Mexicans smuggling drugs into America did not reflect negatively on your country. Complete non sequiter. Followed by a false dichotomy. And possibly a misattribtion. It’s remarkably thick for such a short paragraph.

Of course not and if you are trying to equate the 2 then you’re a moron.

Not equate, compare. You justify smuggling drugs into America on the basis of the Americans desire for drugs, even though said smuggling is illegal. Pimping children is illegal. Does the demand justify the supply? Dealing drugs in Mexico is illegal, yet you take no position on it, even when asked. Does the demand justify the supply?

Yes and let me thank all of your junkies for their support.

This tears it. Whatever high moral ground you may think you have claimed has been abandoned, you ignorant pigfucker. You admit that your economy would be weakened (significantly, I suspect, unless thirty billion is small potatoes, and you have a non-standard definition for "propped up,) if drug smuggling from Mexico to the U.S. were halted, and are grateful that there are so many American junkies. Fuck you.

Excuse me? Didn’t you say borders are common? So how does Fox’ comments on what is happening on our common border equate to commenting on something not even remotely related?

Are you sure you have not been sampling the product you endorse so highly? You ask a question about crack use in America, and when I respond to that question, your rejoinder is about borders? Wha?

Let me enlighten you. The border is common, in that it is an imaginary line separating the two countries. The fence will be built on our side. Surely you realized that, no? Did you honestly think it would be built of some imaginary material that has no thickness? Fox is commenting on happenings on our side.

You brought up the crack houses. I will ask you again. Has Bush, to your knowledge, scolded Mexico for such stuff?

Whoa… tell me again why Mexico should spend one fucking peso to enforce US laws???

As noted by Frank and others, an excellent point. I spoke in error. Let me re-phrase. Why should Mexico not do more to enforce it’s own laws against drug smuggling?

And for at least the second time, and in deference to the OP, is the proposed border fence akin to the Berlin Wall?