The Border Fence Is Not a "Berlin Wall"

I didn’t justify anything. I asked why should we care? You act as if we’re responsible for your well-being but again I mention your unilateral decison to erect the wall which will undoubtedly lead to the death of innocents going north to fill your demand for cheap labor. Giving jobs to undocumented workers is illegal but I haven’t seen any fucking legislation to put a stop to that. So get off your moral high horse.

Now tell me what you know about firearms being smuggled into Mexico from the US? Big business, don’t you know? Many innocent people die from these weapons that are smuggled in. These are illegal in Mexico. A lot of them are purchased with money from drug sales to stupid gringos. The US government does very little to stop it. They expect Mexican police and soldiers to risk their lives to stop the flow of drugs but pay little attention to the minor little detail of they are being killed by US weapons illegally smuggled into our country.

Pig fucker!!! That’s funny. That really hurts!!

I’d trade that money for legalization in a heartbeat because that would go far in reducing the amount of violence associated with the illegal drug trade. Violence that affects the lives of many, many of us. Sacrifices we’re required to make for the well-being of people “beyond the wall”.

Yes as a matter of fact the US has been quite vociferous lately in criticizing Mexico for the violence in Nuevo Laredo by the drug cartels. You know, on our side of the imaginary line? With arms smuggled from your side of the imaginery line, btw. I haven’t seen anything in the news though about the US taking any increased action to put a halt to the arms smuggling, have you? Which is, if you didn’t know, illegal on your side of the imaginary line.

No, that’s a false dichotomy. There could be lots of reasons why someone doesn’t want to get a visa. If you have a cite that counters what Ms. Bryan said, let’s see it. Otherwise, I see no reason to doubt her veracity.

Sure, a lot of people would rather risk their lives and pay a pollero several thousand dollars with no guarantee of arriving safely al otro lado than pay 100 dollars for a visa which assures their entry. What would be the other reasons?

Probably the same people building the new United States Embassy in Iraq. :mad:

We have become a nation of whores and abusers.

Cartooniverse

They’ve already been caught once and sent back. Happens to about 1 million Mexicans every year.

Yes and I’m sure they gave their real names, addresses and other pertinent personal information to the border guards. I don’t know why you can’t accept the fact that most people just can’t get a visa.

I don’t know why you can’t produce a cite, if your claim is true.

But frankly, the fence isn’t going to make a difference whether any more people get to legally visit their relatives, which is the only pertinent issue here.

The only thing you’ve produced is a quote from an embassy spokesman claiming 70% approval. So that is your proof? That was for the Mexico City region. What about any of the other US consulates that issue visas? How about some statistics from your government for the whole country? Can you produce a cite for that?

Look, it’s a stupid argument you’re making anyway, so no, I’m not going to look for more cites. You’ve produced 0 cites. And your argument amounts to: The US should leave the border completely open so that Mexicans can sneak across to visit their relatives. I’m sorry, but we’re not going to do that.

Besides, we know from surveys that something like 40% of all Mexicans (even the wealthy ones) would like to move to the US if they could. We’re just not going to give all of them visas. No country would do that. Maybe you should do something on your side of the border to fix that.

No my argument isn’t an open border and you will find nothing in my posting history to support that claim. My argument is that an intelligent solution to the immigration situation is preferable to idiocy like this fence. My problem is that Americans allow want to point the blame at others and not accept any responsibilty. If you want to stop people from entering your country then eliminate the employment source. But you people aren’t willing to do that.

If you accept the fact that there is a demand for foriegn workers, something many reasonable and intelligent people on both sides of the border accept, then work together to find a solution. I mean Bush was for an agreement before he was against an agreement now wasn’t he?

The analogies with the Berlin wall are stupid. I can’t believe the lame (or sadly ignorant) attempts to wave away the crucial nature of that wall, which was that it was put up to make that country a prison, so the government could continue to get away with oppressing its people and maintaining millions of them in slave labor camps. That was the essential evil of that wall - the difference between a prison and freedom. The comparison is an insult to the people who had to live behind that wall and the brave ones who lost their lives trying to get over it.

As for the new wall, of course it won’t keep all the Mexicans out. Only the dull, lazy and slow witted ones. And after all, don’t you want your maids and gardeners to be the smartest and hardest working of the bunch?

It’s not a 700 mile wall. It’s a 700 mile filter. :smiley:

Fuck you

What a stunning display of logic! I’m convinced.

No, it isn’t. It doesn’t even approach a good question.

To begin with, it ignores the fact that every sovereign nation on earth is responsibile for its borders. Both what comes in, and what goes out.

If criminal rings in the United States were sending addictive poison into Mexico, do you think that CBGringoHater would think that was fine and dandy? Would the Mexican government have no right to ask us to control our own borders? What if it wasn’t drugs, but weapons being shipped over the border? What if it wasn’t just weapons, but weapons being used to attack the Mexican government?

Likewise, as I’m sure GringoHater knows but is avoiding, the Mexican government hasn’t simply turned a blind eye to the tide of illegals streaming into our country, they’ve been actively aiding it.

~shrugs~

I’ll just chuckle that GringoHater evidently can’t even deal with the socioeconomic status of illegals with anything other than frothing “fuck you”.

" ‘Shut up’ he explained. "

Apparently you can’t read because I’ve already commented on the problem with gun smuggling from the US into Mexico. The Mexican government has asked for help on this matter with very little response from your government. Don’t blame me because you’re ignorant.

My response to SAm Stone was to his bigoted and derogatory remarks about Mexicans. If you have a problem with that fuck you too.

It’s true that Mexico does have a “Tourist card” and a “tourist visa”. The difference is not great- a “card” is a form of visa for all intents and purposes. Generally, US visitors get a Card rather than a Visa.
http://www.learn4good.com/travel/mexico_visa.htm
"TOURIST CARD
Available only to people entering Mexico on holiday, for reasons of health, or to engage in scientific, artistic or sporting activities which are neither remunerative nor lucrative. Valid for the holder only.
Other persons (including minors) travelling on the same passport must have their own card. The card is a single-entry document and is issued free of charge. The Consular office retains the right to request further evidence of the applicant’s intention to visit Mexico as a tourist whenever such intention has not been established to the Consul’s satisfaction.
The same right applies with regard to evidence of the applicant’s financial means to sustain him/herself while in Mexico.

Note:
(a) Visitors eligible for Tourist Cards can be issued with Tourist Cards by any Mexican Consulate, on board the plane or at the point of entry in Mexico.
(b) Tourist Cards must be kept by the visitor during the entire length of stay as they will have to be presented and stamped on leaving.What documents will be required?
In all cases the following will be required:

Valid passport
Round trip ticket

Depending on nationality and/or visa requirements, the following may also be required:
Completed application form
3 passport size photos
Transcript of grades

Tourist Cards:
(a) Passport with a minimum of 6 months’ validity.
(b) If applying by post, a covering letter giving dates of entry and departure. Postal applications must be accompanied by a stamped, self-addressed envelope for recorded or registered delivery.
(c) Return or onward ticket.
(d) Proof of sufficient funds if staying for up to 6 months."

Visas require about the same, except there is a small fee. Note that the “tourist card” is not there for dudes to visit family or to look for work, get jobs, or anything work related: “Available only to people entering Mexico on holiday, for reasons of health, or to engage in scientific, artistic or sporting activities which are neither remunerative nor lucrative.”

As to Mexicos borders to it’s south, that has been discussed in Congress:
http://www.capitolweekly.net/news/article.html?article_id=762
“This is to point out the hypocrisy of Mexico’s statements,” Hollingsworth
said. He added, “There is not a lot we can do without backing of the federal
government.”

The source of that “hypocrisy” lies in Mexico’s 1917 constitution. While it
does include one of the same controversial clauses as the U.S.
Constitution–that anyone born on the country’s soil is automatically granted
citizenship–those not born in the country face severe restrictions that
immigrants to the United States do not.

For instance, Article 33 states that foreigners may be deported without any
legal recourse: “Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel
any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the
national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal
action.” It also states that, “Foreigners may not in any way participate in
the political affairs of the country.”

Mexicans are also legally given priority over foreigners for employment.
Even naturalized foreigners cannot serve in the military; they also lose
their Mexican citizenship if they move back to their “country of origin” for
over five years.
…According to a fact sheet distributed by Hollingsworth’s office, “Mexico
routinely fills 10 or 12 buses a day with undocumented Central Americans,”
deporting 240,000 last year alone. It claims Mexico has legalized only
15,000 migrants in the past five years.

Meanwhile, it said, “Mexico has been demanding that the U.S. ignore, alter
or abolish its own immigration laws,” even while illegally immigrating into
Mexico is a felony.
It added that, “Migrants in the United States have held
huge demonstrations demanding more rights.” …
A representative from the Mexican government did not return multiple phone
calls seeking comment for this article. " (italics mine) Note the huge wave of protests here in the USA by Mexican nationals when it was proposed that the USA make illegally immigrating into the USA a felony. :rolleyes: That’s the very definition of hypocrisy.

As to the Mexican economy, it has a wealth of natural resources, including scads of oil. However, the nation is dependent upon Mexicans moving to America (legally or illegaly) and sending cash back home. That source of cash is somewhere in the top 3, along with oil sales and drug sales. In other words, it seems to me that without America sending $$ to Mexco through “money sent home” drug sales or buying oil, Mexico’s economy would collapse overnite. Of course Fox wants more of his people to be allowed entry into America- it lowers his crowding problem and shores up his economy!

Indeed, America does buy the drugs. But it’s Mexican corrurption, not American corruption that allows the flow of drugs into the USA:
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=5598
"Occasionally, the federal government of Mexico temporarily deployed the military and federal police officers to maintain order against trafficker-generated violence in highly impacted cities. But more often than not Mexican military – or those posing as military – provide protection for the traffickers and drug gangs.

The so-called “Zetas” complicate matters even more. These are former Mexican military personnel and deserters, some of whom were actually trained by the United States in counter-narcotics operations.

The Fox Administration pledged an all-out effort against drug trafficking organizations, but lacks the capacity to eliminate or even control the leading cartels. The principal impediment to counter-drug success is Mexico’s inherent institutional weakness and endemic corruption. "

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-07/2006-07-26-voa23.cfm
"Corruption has been a problem in Latin America since colonial times. Citizens have been largely tolerant of petty corruption, such as small bribes to bureaucrats and police over minor disputes or offenses, but the stakes have been raised greatly in recent decades by the billions of dollars generated in the illicit drug business. The impact has been especially strong in Mexico.

Official corruption has been an almost constant source of frustration for Mexicans. The country is still dealing with the scandal that followed the privatization of banks in the 1990s. More recent scandals have involved corrupt officials in local and state governments. Most Mexicans experience the problem on the street level with corrupt policemen who often demand a mordida or bribe in exchange for dismissing a ticket. But this is petty stuff when compared to the millions of dollars that drug traffickers distribute to corrupt police officials every year.

Mexican criminal justice expert Jorge Chabat says drug money has made its way into every corner of the law enforcement "

Not that Mexico is alone- several South American nations- Columbia and Venezuela are as bad or worse:
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=8376
"On Wednesday, Mexican military officials said they seized five-and-a-half tons of powdered cocaine from a commercial aircraft that landed after a trip from Venezuela. The street value of the drugs was estimated to be upwards of $100 million.

Mexican cops reported that the cocaine was discovered inside over a hundred suitcases marked “private.” The military officers announced that they made three arrests as a result of the cocaine seizure.

Mexican officials claim that cocaine is increasingly being imported from Venezuela, with the US or Europe being the drugs’ final destination.

In this case the Mexican authorities waited for the plane to land at the airport of Ciudad de Carmen, about 550 miles east of Mexico City, after being tipped off by Interpol. The co-pilot of the aircraft was arrested. The pilot and co-pilot of another plane, which was believed to be ready to take the cocaine on to the next location, were also detained.

A Drug Enforcement Administration report last month indicted that Venezuela has become a key transshipment point for narcotics due to “rampant corruption at the highest levels of law enforcement and a weak judicial system”. Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez terminated joint anti-drug operation with United States drug agents from the DEA. The paranoid president accused DEA agents of being spies.

The enormous amount of corruption within the Venezuelan government coupled with its president’s seizure and control of the press has made the country ripe for the transit of illegal drugs and other contraband. No journalist in Venezuela who wants to remain out of prison or worse will report on the corruption, drug trade, crime or any other issue that would embarrass the Chavez government."

Okay… so you want to display your stupidity, and janus-faced idiocy, all in one go?
If you insist.

I’m not blaming you because I’m “ignorant”, I’m well aware of issues in cross border trade. I’m “blaming you” because you’re a dishonest moron.

You see, you damn hypocrite, you didn’t dismiss it out of hand by saying “Whoa, why should the United States spend a single dollar enforcing Mexico’s laws.” In fact, you whinged about it.

You want the US government to prevent guns going into your country, and then pretend it’s unreasonable to ask that your government stop drugs from heading here, and stop deliberately aiding illegals in crossing the border.

Which, by the way, I notice you have deliberately ignored. Were you simply ‘unaware’ of that little detail? Or were you aware of it and deliberately stating a dishonest position in order to raise hackles and support your mush-brained campaign to call Americans racist and xenophobic for wanting an end to illegal immigration? And speaking of which, people engaged in the active breaking of laws are not “innocent”. Fool.

You are simply too fucking stupid to be real, and with dishonesty to match, it’s clear that you’re either trolling, or just, in general, a filthy troll.

Mr Stone, correctly by the way, troll, stated the economic reality of Mexican illegals. Get that adjective, troll? Sam wasn’t making a statement about Mexicans, you braindead trolling schmuck, he was making a statement, supported by the facts by the way, about Mexican illegals.

If the truth hurts, I suggest that you go fuck your sister.

A completely expected response. Arrogance, hypocrisy and bigotry are national traits of Americans.

Why should I go fuck my sister when I’m having so much fun butt fucking your mother?

Do you win a prize for making an arrogant, bigoted, hypocritical slur while pretending that I’ve done so? Does your tiny little brain not register the massive irony, the dishonesty? Naw… you know that you’re full of shit, that’s part of what makes you a troll.

So: shut your mouth you fucking troll.
Or don’t.
Hopefully the mods will deal with you soon enough, you bigoted piece of filth.

Until then, I’m not going to feed you anymore.

Your cite on this matter is mistaken. US visitors do not need a passport or a round trip ticket. From here: Instituto Nacional de Migración
"You can enter Mexico without a visa showing your passport and the “migration Form for Tourists, Transmigrants, Visiting Businesspersons, or Visiting Consultants”, which you can obtain from travel agencies, airlines, or at your point of entry into Mexico.

This option also applies for permanent legal residents in the USA or Canada, regardless of nationality.

The migration agent at your point of entry may also ask you to prove that you have the necessary economic resources for your stay and a return ticket to your country of origin.

Under an agreement with Canada and the USA, those countries’ citizens may prove their nationality with a passport or other public documents, such as:

Certified copy of birth certificate.

Voter registration card.

Naturalization certificate."