Them do it. Show me where I’ve made false accusation. Otherwise you can fuck off too.
No, you’re not. You said:
And then you slightly “clarified” it by saying:
Which completely ignores the fact that “very few people in the geographic region of the Chickasaw Council acknowledged being gay” IS the exact problem here. Gay people who were afraid to simply be who they are because then they would be subjected to descrimination and predjudice, as the BSA is doing today.
You obviously didn’t read my post then. First, I haven’t screamed for any type of “activism” here and second, I stated that I do NOT support the BSA and my son is not a scout because of the homophobic policies the BSA espouses. That’s being a lot more proactive on the issue than “crying on a message board”.
Scylla, you are laboring under a severe case of Yesbut disease. The chief symptom of Yesbut disease is the need to excuse the wrong beliefs/attitudes/behaviours of an organization on the basis of the right beliefs/attitudes/behaviours they also exhibit. The Boy Scouts of America is a Supreme-Court-certified anti-gay organization. “Yes but they provide such a wonderful experience for the (heterosexual and god-believing and male) children who join.” The Catholic Church has labelled homosexuality an intrinsic disorder and gay families as false and counterfeit, and is expending millions of dollars in its effort to keep same-sex marriage illegal and anti-gay discrimination legal. “Yes but they feed the poor and clothe the neddy and so on.” The Republican Party has embraced the anti-gay population of the United States as its base, has refused to pass even the most basic anti-discrimination protections on the federal level and is currently pushing for a Constitutional amendment to ban forever same-sex marriage, domestic partnership, civil unions and the legal incidents thereof. “Yes but…” (OK I admit I’m stymied on this one, I can’t think of a single positive thing to say here, not being afflicted with Yesbut disease myself)
As others have noted, there comes the point where one’s continued association with several anti-gay organizations puts the lie to one’s claim that one is not oneself anti-gay.
Now you take issue with the notion that, say, one must vote against W to show that one is gay-supportive. Fine. Then show your support for gays by dropping your formal affiliation with and/or financial support of the Republican Party until such time as they stop their anti-gay rhetoric and attacks. Show your support by refusing to give any money to the Catholic Church until it stops wasting it on its anti-gay campaign. Show your support by refusing to give money to the Scouts until they knock off their anti-gay crap too. And maybe consider giving some of that money to the organizations who are battling every day against the damage that the anti-gay organizations inflict.
For lack of a better term, put your money where your mouth is.
That was specifically directed at the BSA’s attempts to have it both ways, which was the entire point of my post and which should have been obvious from the fact that I started the post with “This is just the latest in a long line of attempts by the BS to have it both ways.”
I would strongly – strongly – suggest you amend this statement, Otto. Your assertion that this was about the BSA “wanting it both ways” is so much pisswater.
My stepson is a Tiger Cub. You do not say to him, essentially, “Fuck you.” Got a beef with BSA’s leadership in general? Fine. In Connecticut? Peachy. Leave my stepson out of it.
Amend the statement.
Bill H, this might help explain why:
Or else what?
No.
Otto, are you seriously refusing to retract an insult to a seven-year-old boy who has done absolutely nothing to you?
The word “appalling” comes to mind, but I don’t think it’s harsh enough.
Other half? Wow, the recruitment efforts are going splendidly. 
Just to echo some of the other statements here, the reason that there is a surplus of these threads on SDMB is the fact that there is a surplus of heterosexism/homophobia out in the US. Get rid of that and the threads will wane as well. I think it’s a safe measuring stick to replace gay with black to see if there is a problem with the laws/policies/rules out there. How does your gut react to know that no black person can be a scout leader? It makes my stomach turn to think that blacks can’t marry. A legislator says that being black is a disease and that they can be white if they want to. A belief system that you worship says that being black is immoral and that you can either hate the sin but love the sinner or that these blacks are beneath human level…
These are all arguments that have been used ad nauseum in real life and on the SDMB. It’s sad that we have to keep rehashing the same info over and over again to the same people to have them see how faulty their thinking is.
Personally, I think that Otto’s “fuck 'em” should instead extend to the parents of the kids that would put their children into a homophobic group.
Yes, at the Tiger Cub Den Meeting we had just last night, we all discussed how we’re afraid of gay people, and demonstrated various techniques for hunting and trapping them in the wild.
Scylla’s point above was valid. The BSA leadership may or may not be homophobic. I can guarantee you that the Den my stepson belongs to is not. To say “fuck 'em” to Tiger Cubs (six- and seven-year-old boys) and to imply that they’re homophobic is beyond hyperbole, and beyond ridiculous.
So Sauron would you stand up to the indeed, no maybe about it, BSA leadership and say that your troup will not discriminate? Will you follow the lead of the Venture Crew 488 in Sebastopol CA who were ousted from the oraganization for standing up to the leadership? Or how about the fact that Spielberg severed ties with the organization on principle?
Don’t we all do that, though? While it would be nice to find a group that you agree with 100%, that’s not going to happen. No group is perfect and always does good things, so sometimes you have to support a group that advocates things you think are wrong, because it also advocates even more things you think are right. You know, does the good the Catholic Church, or the Boy Scouts, or the Republican Party, [or pick your group] does outweigh the bad it does?
So, is providing a wonderful experience for the children who join the scouts more important to you than it letting gay kids and atheists join? Is feeding the hungry and clothing the needy more important than supporting same sex marriage? Ultimately, that’s something everybody has to decide for themselves, based on their values and the way they rank their priorities.
No, his point is not valid. I agree that calling a 7 year old homophobic because he’s a Tiger Cub is ridiculous, but as his parent ( who is able to make these abstract judgements, a child is not ), it is completely accurate to say that you believe that the good the Boy Scouts does outweighs the harm of their homophobia. Fine, it’s your choice to make and you’ll get no beef from me for making it as long as you are honest and admit that that’s the choice you’re making. Just because nobody in the pack you’re involved in even brings the subject up, it dosen’t mean that the policies of the BSA itself aren’t homophobic, and like it or not, you’re a part of that organization. Admit it and deal with it but most of all, work to change it. It’d be nice if my son could have the same posiive experience with scouts that I did.
Although I can’t really argue with Otto’s “Fuck 'em all” position, I see Sauron’s POV, too. It’s not fair to expect a 7-year-old boy to withdraw from an organization that he enjoys in support of an abstract principle that he is too young to understand. Certainly his pack of li’l Tigers is not going to have to contend with one of their number’s sexual orientation, so why place that burden on shoulders too small to bear the weight?
I thoink we gay folks take too much for granted. Yes, it would be great if Americans unanimously supported us and understood exactly why we feel discriminated against. The sad fact is that they don’t. You can’t demand perfect doctrinal conformity from the average person–effective political activism jest don’t work thataway.
Vilifying Sauron and the stepMinion is not going to win them to our side–and isn’t that the whole point of these threads?
I trust Sauron to demonstrate to his kids when the time is right and they are able to understand that discriminating against gay people is hateful and wrong. In the meantime, it would be a kind gesture for Otto to apologize for directing insults, however obliquely, to innocent children.
From World Net Daily (yea, not the typical left wing source):
Homosexuals protest ‘bigot’ Boy Scouts
I think that this is a more powerful snippet from Newsmax.com
:Homosexuals Target Scouts in Nationwide Protest
So, the BSA banned him not for being gay but for protesting against their homophobia. I really don’t see where you can even be on the fence as to whether or not the BSA is a homophobic organization. Interesting that you think that since your troop isn’t homophobic that its belonging to a homophobic organization is actually exclusive. :rolleyes:
Actually, I tend to view our Tiger Cub Den (and the Pack to which we belong) as apolitical. I wasn’t terribly thrilled that the Stepminion wanted to join the Scouts, but his heart was set on it.
If I thought this would actually cause him to become homophobic somehow – no, we wouldn’t allow him to participate. But I fail to see how leaf-rubbings and hayrides are turning him into a raving homophobe. Or why that should allow some yahoo on an Internet message board to say to him “Fuck you” in absentia.
On preview: Thank you, gobear. We teach the kids that God made everybody, and he made everybody different. Not better, not worse – different.
stpauler: This may come as a shock, but we don’t sit around at our Den meeting and discuss the national policies of the Boy Scouts of America. We tried to, but the kids seemed more intent on having fun, so we just went with that. We’re a pack of rebels that way.
Sure. And how about the boys who are gay who are caused to withdraw, etc.?
There are places I don’t go in my city because my non-white students have reported consistently that they are harassed there. I would enjoy patronizing these establishments, and it’s inconvenient to go elsewhere. My behavior that has its roots in my parents’ explanations about one of the ways to use money to demonstrate displeasure with exclusionary policies. It was a good lesson, hasn’t hurt me any, and gives me good standards to live by. One of them is that my relatively minor inconvenience is nothing when stacked up against the injustices heaped upon people who are different from the index person, no matter on what dimension.
Second-graders have no conception of what being gay means, so I really don’t believe that there any Tiger cubs in the StepMinion’s pack who were forced to withdraw because they are gay.
True enough, but you are an adult capable of seeing the consequences of your actions and the efficacy of economic protest. The stepMinion is not. I don’t think it’s fair to deprive him of being a Tiger cub in support of a concept he cannnot comprehend. If he were older, then my position would be different.
But I don’t fight my battles on the backs of children.
Tell you what – the first time a seven-year-old boy is kicked out of our Pack for being gay, I’ll talk with the Stepminion and explain that we don’t want to belong to that group any more. Until then, I think it’s safe to let him be a child for a while, and not force him to use political and sexual barometers when he wants to play with his friends.
I’m quoting this entire post because it’s so damn sensible, and says just about everything that needs to be said, and no one seems to have noticed it at all.
Can’t say I’m shocked at all. I wouldn’t expect you to sit down with the charter with a 7 year old either and explain the intricacies and the political and socio-ramifications of belonging to a homophobic organization. However, I am shocked that you wouldn’t 1)recognize the fact that the BSA openly discriminates against homosexuals and apparently their supporters as well and 2) that with this fact you choose to sit idly by and claim that since you aren’t directly affected that it’s A-OK if the head offices do this.
Since ignorance ain’t bliss here, don’t be shocked by my opinion of someone who ignores this. There are other organizations out there as well or you could take the time and start your own locally instead of belonging to the BSA. Growing up, the neighborhood fathers organized a group called “Indian Paths” which pretty much taught all that the BSA did without the religion or uniforms. It’s all your choice of course.