Doesn’t it depend on how you define “stand in” - if you literally mean a movie audience, then yes, an audience is placated with movie violence while the Ancient Ones need real gore and blood.
But if you look at what the movie is commenting on overall about Humanity, we are much, much closer to the attraction and repulsion of real gore than we regularly admit - ultimately, it is not clear how truly “domesticated” humans are - there are too many unfortunately examples where we don’t just behave like a placated movie audience…like looky-lou’s driving past a horrific accident and slowing way down…
ETA: read your reply. I think the reactions you characterize come from the same place in Humanity - doesn’t matter if the gore is fictional or real. We may feel morally better-off because it is fake gore, but the fascination with it emerges from the same place…
I don’t see how it can be about that confluence if the Elder Gods are supposed to be what represents us, the audience. The way in which they differ from us is so central to their role in the film and our role as audience that their being a reference to us loses any real significance.
Where I’m at right now is, I’m not convinced we know what movie the comment is making overall about humanity. The analogy some are drawing in this thread on the movie’s behalf seems to me to dissolve on analysis–which leaves me with no confidence that I understand what the comment is supposed to be. I don’t think it can be what you guys say it is, at least not as you’ve put it so far.
Fill in the blank, preferably using the movie as a discussion point:
I should think twice about my enjoyment of torture porn because_____________?
(Actually, thing is, I don’t enjoy gore and brutality etc on film. So that may have something to do with my lack of comprehension of the point you’re trying to make, who knows.)
Even if this is granted, I still don’t see what the significance of it is supposed to be. To me, the significance of an act or attitude is in its effects, not in its origin.
If the two impulses originate from the same “part of the brain” (or however this “same place” phraseology can be cashed out literally) then it might be important to be sure we know how to channel the impulse in the right direction. Plausibly, things that originate from the same place will tend to end up in the same place absent external forces. So then, if we find ourselves enjoying torture porn, and this enjoyment comes from the same place that enjoyment of real torture comes from, then we might do well to remind ourselves of this every now and then with a view toward being sure we’re channeling that enjoyment into fiction and not tempted to let it channel into reality.
Edited to Add - just read your last post above this. Yeah, it feels like we are overlapping a lot…
Try this: in this movie’s world, the Elder Ones require real gore, however ritualized. The virgin and joker say No, don’t fulfill their roles with “real” (in the movie’s world) gore, and the movie ends with the Elder Ones starting to emerge to follow through - let the chaos and real gore begin.
In reality, Humanity is placated by movie gore - to the point where we see formulaic movies with stock characters going through stock motions as part of their role in a “Standard Gore Sacrifice Play” - which of course is what is parodied in CinW. But while Humanity can be placated by ritualized gore, if at any point something gets stuck and doesn’t work quite right, Humanity is a step away from real gore - we are always a step away from chaos and gore. Genocide; ethnic cleansing; use of chemical weapons - all kinds of mass and individual gore…
So Humanity is like the Elder Ones in that we’ve been lulled into domesticity for the most part, but once you look past the ritual - or if the ritual can’t exist within a stable civilization, there is chaos…
Yeah, I think that’s mostly it. I don’t really see it as a cautionary thing - I don’t think people who uncritically consume Saw movies are at risk of being more violent or dangerous than people who are more invested in meta critical analysis. I think it’s more an acknowledgement that human consciousness arose in part out of some very dark impulses, and that a lot of the media we consume is still tailored to cater to those impulses. I wouldn’t think of it in terms of morality, just more of a, “this is kind of weird, huh?” thing.
I’ve been thinking about another aspect of the film that we haven’t touched on. It is outside the scope of the original question, but I guess this has become a catch-all discussion of the movie.
And that is, the fact that other facilities around the world are failing in their duty to properly manipulate the victims and secure a ritual sacrifice. I really enjoyed the sweet little Japanese girls kicking the ass of the Samara thing.
What is the significance of this? All ritual sacrifices are going to hell, including the American one we’re in on … so is the point that it was up to the Americans to save the world’s bacon, and we failed? Or maybe that it was all collapsing anyway and this ostensibly finely tuned machine for keeping the ancient gods in check was doomed to failure?
To me it just sounded like bad luck. When the 2 supervisors are talking at the beginning of the movie, they seemed pretty contemptuous of every other team beside the Japanese. The Japanese have never failed, and the USA hasn’t failed since the 90s. I got the impression that the other teams just aren’t trying that hard anymore since they expect one of the top 2 teams to succeed.
And really, if the groundwork team had found all of Marty’s stashes, everything would have worked out fine.
Another question - WHY was there a button to release all the monsters? Especially since it didn’t even require a card key or password or anything. Was that a comment on self-destruct mechanisms that have no purpose other than to allow the hero to defeat the villain?
I think it’s more that the Japanese & Americans simply have more resources to put into the ritual than the other teams. Just imagine the kind of budget restraints the Argentines or the Greeks are working under. TVTropes has plenty of theories regarding the system purge button. My favourite is that it’s a last case back-up in case someone really does manage to show up with the National Guard. Plus they did say there was supposed to be some kind of gas to knock out the monsters.
The first time I saw the movie, I completely misunderstood what had caused the short that prevented the tunnel from collapsing. At the party, the guy who was responsible for the tunnel says the short came from “upstairs.” He meant, “from the cabin,” but I thought he was saying, “from management,” and I assumed that all the sacrifices had failed because someone from the head office of Evil Bastards, Inc. was deliberately sabotaging them.
Didn’t figure out what really happened until I watched the commentary track. :smack:
I wonder if the monsters are somehow conditioned to follow the pattern of the ritual? For example would they deliberately avoid killing anyone until the Whore dies? Patience seemed to ignore Dana at times, but her uncle-brother-husband-father was on the verge of killing her when Marty showed up. Does Control ever have to intervene to keep the Virgin safe until the others are dead?
I thought so too. And naturally the “client” would turn out to be Satan.
Patience seemed to ignore Dana at times, but her uncle-brother-husband-father was on the verge of killing her when Marty showed up. Does Control ever have to intervene to keep the Virgin safe until the others are dead?