Aside from four hundred years worth of post-contact culture and advancements across a broad swath of the spectrum of human endeavours, in GDP alone Quebec is a powerhouse. Take Alberta’s GDP and add half as much again.
Montreal and Quebec City contain some of the best examples of heritage architecture in Canada. Western Canada merely has isolated spatterings of such items. Both cities have a far more old school European urban feel than Vancouver. IMHO. Adds a lot to the country in that aspect.
There is an Avaaz petition circulating, calling for the immediate release of the Auditor General’s report. In it, the statement is made
No source is given for this assertion. I wanted to ask, particularly those of you whose legal knowledge is greater than mine (and yes, that would be just about all of you.) if anyone else has any further information to confirm or deny. From my reading of the last couple of days, this would seem to be wishful thinking, particularly as all the parties have indicated that they, too, would like this report released.
Hydroelectricity and 20% of Canada’s GDP, eh? I can live with that.
Depends on which measuring stick you’re using; Quebec’s GDP per capita from 2009 is $37,278, and Alberta’s is $49,563. 
Sure. Now.
What’s it going to be in 2020? 2040? If oil drops to $20 a barrel, or runs out, will Alberta complain when they start getting equalization payments?
Even if we’re to count the “Value” of our fellow citizens by their GDP, which I find abhorrent and pointless, these things don’t stay the same. Twenty years ago Newfoundland was a basket case, now it’s getting rich. Same with Saskatchewan. Ontario is down right now to the manufacturing decline; within a few years it’ll be back up.
If we started splitting up along lines of who costs us money, Canada would end up being 308 separate countries and each one would be carving off neighborhoods.
The last thing the world needs is more countries. Frankly, the human race needs to start moving towards the unification of nations, not towards further subdivision. It’s the existence of exclusively sovereign states that causes war and inequity.
When I said that I wouldn’t “dare” speak French in Calgary, I didn’t mean that I’d be afraid that doing so would put my life in jeopardy. I think many of you are putting too much weight on my use of the word “dare”. I’m in an English-speaking country, and I speak fluent English: of course I’ll go with English. I wouldn’t “dare” speak French in Dublin either, not because I think the Irish have anything against the French language, but because I don’t think they’d understand me.
When I was in Western Canada in 2006 (Alberta and BC), I didn’t have any problems, I was treated well by most people, I had fun and I didn’t feel threatened. I think I pissed off a cashier at a movie theatre in Edmonton by asking him to repeat what he’d said two or three times because I hadn’t understood, but that’s the extent of my troubles. So yes, I know that Western Canadians don’t feel any kind of murderous rage toward me just because I’m from Quebec.
This said, I know that Albertans in particular feel that bilingualism is a terrible waste of money, and they project this annoyance on the French language, and on Quebec which they view as the source of all those wasteful projects. So am I going to go there and force them to speak to me in French? Hell no! The polite thing to do anyway, in any country, is to try to speak their language as much as you can manage it. I’m in Italy right now (once again) and I try to go with Italian as much as I can. I was in Switzerland last week and I went as far as I could with my few words of German (it’s amazing what you can do with “Hallo”, “Auf Wiedersehen”, “Rösti” and “Bier” 
); otherwise I tried English. Yes, French is one of the official languages of Switzerland, but why would the German-speaking Swiss speak it? Similarly, French is one of the official languages of Canada, but why would the English Canadians speak it. So that’s what I meant by “dare”. Don’t take it as an indication that I feel like I could become a target of violence or something.
No, I’m not making it up. (Okay, the “strip club” thing wasn’t really serious; there is such a thread but the person making the comment was joking. Still, it’s interesting to see what stereotypes other peoples have about us.) But yes, English Canadians do tend to see (francophone) Quebecers as racist and intolerant, and tend to blame that on “separatism”, demagogic politicians, or on the fundamental values of French-speaking peoples as compared with English-speaking peoples. Take [post=12233167]this post[/post] by English Canadian (and generally a good poster) KarlGauss as an example. And they do so without really understanding the context (sometimes it just isn’t racism or intolerance, though of course it may be) and they have trouble seeing intolerance in themselves. It’s human nature, of course, to see the straw in your neighbour’s eye but not in yours, but it should be mentioned.
If you want, I can check English Canadian news media (and reader comments), find examples of such accusations and post them here so we discuss them. It shouldn’t be too hard to do.
A scandal? I wouldn’t. In Ottawa, maybe, but in Calgary, we all know you won’t find people who speak French but not English.
Sounds like a great test, in fact. The Ottawa newspaper Le Droit used to do this, send undercover journalists in public offices or private businesses to see how easy it was to be served in French in Ottawa and in English in Gatineau. I don’t read it anymore, so I don’t know when was the last time they did it, but suffice to say that being served in English in Gatineau was extremely easy, while being served in French in Ottawa wasn’t all that easy. Though I want to address something else…
I know this is the theory, but it is the practice? I think I’m starting to see a pattern emerge here. I’ve heard before English Canada criticizing Quebec for rejecting English (by being officially unilingual, and not opening public English-language schools to whoever wants to send their kids there, etc.) while patting themselves on the back for embracing French and bilingualism. But despite this, for some reason, the proportion of Quebec francophones who are fluent in English is much higher than the proportion of anglophones from other provinces who are fluent in French, the anglophone minority of Quebec is in much better shape than the francophone minorities in other provinces, and it’s much easier to communicate in English in Quebec than in French in other provinces, especially if we consider the provinces with very little francophones. As a francophone I’ve heard a lot about how bilingualism isn’t all it’s cracked up to be, many unilingual anglophones get into officially bilingual positions and stay there for 20 years without learning French, managing to always postpone taking the test, or passing the test without actually speaking the language. But you anglophones might not have heard of this. These things are scandals for francophones (and only a subset of them; as I’ve said I’m not really in favour of blanket official bilingualism), not for you.
So when you say that of course I could go to a federal government office in Calgary and be served in French, I’m sure you believe it. To you, that’s Canada. But to me that’s theoretical Canada. So I’m suspecting that there is a part of ignorance here. You haven’t questioned the official line because you’ve never had to. You’ve never had to be served in French, so you assume that of course it can be done from coast to coast without problem. We’re in Canada and Canada is a proudly bilingual country! I may be too cynical (hey, I’ve never had to fish for service in French anyway since I can just switch to English) but I like to think that I’m closer to the truth. It may behoove you to read some of the Official Languages Commissioner’s books. (Not that I’ve read them myself, but I know the gist of what he usually talks about.) It may teach you some things about your country.
True story: yesterday, just after making my post about the Bloc’s history, I took out my mp3 player and turned it on, and it was on a Great Big Sea album.
I don’t really care about this, you know. We don’t have a duty to learn about our country’s culture, especially that which comes from far away and is in a language we don’t speak. What do you know about the modern-day lives of native peoples in Northern Canada? I don’t know much about it, and while it’s something that may be interesting to learn about, it’s not really a concern for most of us. (The fact that many of them live in third world conditions is important, but then again, what are we even doing about it?) My message is this: avoid speaking from a position of ignorance. If all you know about Quebec is that people eat poutine, listen to Céline Dion and go to a carnival with a big snowman, and apparently they oppress anglophones over there, maybe you should educate yourself before speaking.
That’s the Expansionist Party of the United States’ website. Not a good source of information about anything. Check the rest of the website if you want to see what I mean.
No. As I’ve heard someone describe it, Americans who come to Quebec, or to Canada in general, are aware that they’re in a foreign country. So they fully expect that things might not be exactly like they are at home. There will be differences, they may even have some problems with communication. That’s all part of being abroad.
Canadians from other provinces who come to Quebec know that they’re still in Canada. It’s not a foreign country, they didn’t even have to get their passport to go there. So they sometimes lack the sense that things may be different and that they may run into communication issues. It’s Canada, people should be speaking English, and if they don’t, well, it’s because the separatists are making it so that people don’t learn it. But no. It’s actually that you are, not in a foreign country, but not “home” either.
And in your case, your parents decided that Quebec’s political climate was becoming “hostile” to English speakers. I don’t know if that’s your own opinion as well, but that’s pretty much an accusation of something there, xenophobia or intolerance or whatever. Despite the fact that objectively speaking, it’s much easier to be an English speaker in Quebec than a French speaker in, well, even Ontario probably. So clearly there is a matter of perception at play, and perception that’s not completely based on facts.
I come from Gatineau and go to Ottawa every time I see my parents and friends. I’ve been to New Brunswick in 2006 and 2007, and in Alberta and BC in 2006 as well. In Toronto probably twice as well. When I finish my Ph.D., I want to embark on a road trip across Canada. So I don’t think I’m as ignorant of this country as you seem to believe.
And it’s another thing that’s tiresome: the assumption that if a francophone Quebecer finds something infuriating about English Canada, it’s probably because he’s isolated (probably from “rural Quebec”), doesn’t know much about anglophones and probably doesn’t speak English. While people who know anglophones (Montrealers, for example) love them and are all about the Canadian experience. The facts show that it’s usually when different ethnic/linguistic groups live close by that they can’t stand each other, and Canada is no exception.
And you can, especially if you used to know some of it. I know you claim it’s not some amorphous guilt, but I think that for a certain number of English Canadians, saying “I wish I spoke French” is a way to both look like you’re embracing bilingualism (which is supposed to be a Canadian value) while actually not having to work at it. Not saying that’s your case, since in your case it seems to be for very practical reasons.
Now I swear I didn’t want to hijack this thread away from the election. At first I was just responding to Polycarp’s question about the Bloc’s platform with an explanation of how a sovereigntist party can actually work entirely within the context of the Canadian federal system. But I guess the discussion moved somewhere else.
I don’t think that the “facts” show anything of the sort. If they did, surely Toronto would be simply seething with ethnic hatreds, right? It’s one of the most ethnically diverse places on earth …
Alright - I looked it up. If you wish to be served in French, you do have to go to the main Service Canada centre in Calgary. There are four of them, and three offer service only in English. There is also a fifth one that offers all sorts of languages.
And I DO speak French. I’m also an Albertan.
I’m really not sure where you are getting your info that “Albertans think bilingualism is a waste of money”
I’ve never in my life heard that here. I went to French immersion school. I considered sending my kids to French immersion school (they’re going to go to Spanish school instead) You are saying that the rest of Canada needs to stop assuming things about Quebec and francophones - you could do the same about Albertans.
Toronto’s not at all what I’m describing here. (And of course it’s also not exempt from ethnic tensions.) Let me express myself better: in countries where two or more major ethnic or linguistic groups coexist, it’s usually at the border where both of them are present that tensions between them are the highest. You yourself talked about “small town bigots in Ontario near the Quebec border”: I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you put it (we can also find those small town bigots in Sault Ste. Marie which is nowhere near the Quebec border), but surely you realise that it’s at the language border that we find most problems.
Toronto isn’t anything of the sort, since it features many ethnic/linguistic groups living in a place where there is nonetheless one dominant culture.
Fair enough, I suppose that if there is one particular centre where we can be served in many different languages, French has got to be one of them. Note that I have no problem with guaranteeing multilingual service in only a portion of the service centres.
Well you may not think so. But ask Cat Whisperer what she thinks about official bilingualism. Or Uzi. Or Sam Stone. I’m having trouble finding actual survey results, since after all you can get wildly divergent opinions about bilingualism depending on what question you actually ask. Anyway, from Wikipedia, describing results from a 2004 report by André Turcotte and Andrew Parkin:
So from what I can see English Canadians seem to support official bilingualism in the abstract, but tend to view the current policy as expensive and inefficient, and the question of whether Canada has gone too far in pushing bilingualism reaches a high of 65% of positive responses in the Prairies. I think this jibes with my affirmation that Albertans tend to view bilingualism as expensive and not really useful. Whether it causes them to get resentful (and especially resentful of Quebec) is of course another question.
This is the kind of thing that rankles some anglophones, in anglophone-only communities.
Yes, these are communities in “the National Capital Region” but if you’ve ever been to them, and I have many, many times, there is practically zero chance of anyone in the town being a francophone, and if you are I mean how hard is it to order stamps in a different language. English Canada sees stories like this from time to time and starts frothing at the mouth. [/hijack]
You’re conflating two completely different concepts.
Criticism of Quebec for some of the provisions of Bill 101 is based on concepts of civil rights and what the proper role of government is. It’s abhorrent to a lot of people - including me - that the goverment would use coercion to order people what language they can use on their own time and on their own property. To my mind, and the minds of many people, if you own a store you should be able to put up a sign in any language you please, and it is not the place of government to tell you otherwise. The issue with schools is a bit murkier, though; after all, that’s not strictly a matter of allowing people to do as they please. It’s a state-provided service.
Conversely, the reason more Francophones speak English than the reverse is simply demographics and convenience. It is useful to many Francophones to speak English, so they learn to speak it. The proportion of Anglophones who derive equivalent value from learning French is lower; after all, most of us live near the US border, and Americans don’t speak a lot of French. Expressing surprise at that is kind of like expressing surprise that more anglos in Arizona have learned to speak a little Spanish than have anglos in New Hampshire.
Criticism of Quebec’s government is just that; it’s criticism of GOVERNMENT POLICY. It’s not criticism of Quebecois or the French language. If the Province of Alberta were to ban non-English words on commercial signs I would be positively outraged, as would most decent Canadians. I’m anglophone and not even Albertan, but I’d consider it a gross offense against civil rights and common decency. That doesn’t mean I’d hate Albertans or the English language; it means I don’t like laws that impinge upon what I feel are basic human rights.
Surely you see the distinction?
It’s funny that we end up focusing on the polarity of Alberta and Québec - my family has its Canadian roots in both provinces. Yes, there are extremists in both places and it’s much easier to toss out the anecdotes that back up our assumptions than it is to research what’s really going on but it’s not going to give us an accurate picture of the range of opinions and ideas in either place.
Alberta does tend to be more socially conservative than many of the other provinces, but it still has a gay scene, it still has environmentalists, and it still has a 38.7% group that does not intend to vote conservative.
Alberta is not known for its cultural scene, and yet
from the following article in the Globe and Mail. Calgary Opera has produced more world premieres of Canadian works than any other company in Canada. That doesn’t seem to jibe with the image of Alberta as having a less active culture than Québec, but it’s a fact - “Over the past nine seasons, Calgary Opera has presented four world premieres, with a fifth in this upcoming season, three Canadian premieres, and many company premieres.” - from the Calgary Opera website.
Alberta has the smallest francophone population of any of the Canadian provinces, but that population exists - I’ve worked with him. (That was a joke.) My uncle was who introduced me to his friends, the Alberta separatists. We had an extremely firey debate…
Anyway, I would not presume to say ‘Albertans think this’ or ‘Quebeckers agree that…’. The plurality of opinion that actually exists just makes that seem like a really foolish, untenable assertion.
BTW, I am one of those Anglos who does say “I wish I spoke better French.”, for the same reason that I say “I wish I could play the piano better.” I continue to practice and improve because I find it rewarding, both the piano and the language.
Again, not so; again, Canada provides strong counter-examples. What about New Brunswick? It’s the only constitutionally bilingual province in Canada, and has a large French minority (with, it may be pointed out, a far more tragic history than that of Quebec itself) - yet is not known as a hotbed of ethnic hatreds.
Of course, nowhere is free from ethnic tensions. But I dispute your contention that living with “major ethnic or linguistic groups” is to blame for them. On the contrary, I think distorted and abused ethno-nationalism is to blame, quite irrespective of who one’s neighbours actually are - and that can happen anywhere, including where everyone is more or less of the same nationality.
I disagree. What is the “one dominant culture” in Toronto? Certainly not Anglos - an absolute minority here. Visible minorities make up half the population, and of the other half, very high percentages are Ukranian, Italian, Jewish etc. In fact, 44% of the population is not Canadian born!
Ah, Southern Pontiac, what would we do without this wonderful place. 
But you’re telling us that what causes you to froth at the mouth is the government declaring districts as bilingual and then actually enforcing this decision? Do you think public servants in Masson should be able to speak English? It’s also part of the National Capital Region. If not, then your problem is with the concept of a National Capital Region itself.
But I must say that in terms of things that cause an entire population to start frothing at the mouth, that’s pretty small beans.
So you’re splitting the provisions of the Charter of the French Language in two: the dispositions on commercial signage and the dispositions on education. That’s good, because so do I, and you’re the first anglophone I’ve ever seen who does that distinction. And honestly the dispositions on education are the most important; the signage laws I’d be practically willing to do away with. But it’s not true that business owners are always allowed to use whatever language they want. In Canada, there are laws about food products being required to show ingredient lists and nutrition information, if not on the packaging then at least somewhere else obvious, and I believe in both official languages. Do you oppose such laws? We could argue that the signage dispositions of the Charter fulfill the same goal: protecting consumers’ right to be informed.
Did I express surprise? No. What I said is that the English-language minority of Quebec, despite all the talk about how oppressed they are (just witness Baffle’s parents), is in a better shape than French-language minorities in the rest of Canada. To me this puts all English Canadians’ complaints about how Quebec treats its minorities in perspective.
Your example doesn’t parallel Quebec’s case: non-French words on commercial signs are definitely not banned in Quebec. I see your point, but keep in mind that most francophone Quebecers support the Charter of the French Language and see it as an important factor in their continued existence as a people. So if you oppose bill 101, they may see that as akin to supporting assimilation. Unless you can explain why it isn’t so.
Well, you’re an opera singer; knowing a few languages, especially French and Italian, is an asset to you.
Hatreds, maybe not. But I do notice that the 1991 New Brunswick election led to a party whose platform was basically “opposition to bilingualism” forming the official opposition. And I seem to remember that Moncton didn’t become a bilingual city without people objecting. New Brunswick certainly isn’t a place subject to excessive inter-community strife, but even there we can find some.
You may be confusing cause and effect here. I’m not sure what “distorted and abused ethno-nationalism” is exactly, but certainly it doesn’t appear out of the void. Very uniform populations see little in the way of inter-community strife; how can it be otherwise? Places where many nationalities coexist are more interesting, no doubt, but historically they’re where problems arise.
Why, Canadian culture of course, what else? 
Regardless of where they’re from, Torontonians watch the Leafs on CBC Saturday night (ok, maybe not right now :p) and talk about how proud they are of being Canadian. And of course they use English as their common language of communication, even though it’s quite possible that less than 50% of them actually speak it natively. Torontonians can have different origins, but they are one people. Do you see the distinction?
Well the Québec debate last night was pretty disappointing. Sorry I meant to say French debates, but the way the questions were geared they totally neglected the 2. something million Francophones that don’t live in Québec.
More of the same Duceppe saying he wan’ts nothing to do with Canada wants to seperate but give us as much money as possible until then.
One part of a question I found particularly offensive.
Really ? Out of all the questions gathered they went with this one ? If this is popular opinion people in Québec are way more out of touch than I thought.
You misunderstand Bill 101 when it comes to the workplace. You can speak whatever damn language you want at work, provided that francophones can also be served in French (which makes sense, in a place where 90% of the population is francophone). Paperwork can be in any language you want, provided it’s *also *available in French, and that French is prominent in signage (which in many examples reduces down to “comes first”).
Hardly oppressive, and really, what kind of business would choose to alienate 90% of it’s potential clientele anyways?
Note, of course, that the restriction on education applies to the majority population in Québec, not to the minority. It is francophones (and new immigrants) who are required to attend school in French; anglophones can go anywhere they please and have no limitations whatsoever to access to education in English, from K through the Cégep program and university. A lot of people don’t understand that and think it’s the other way around. Anglophones are hardly oppressed here. FWIW, I support Bill 101 in almost every instance - there are the odd cases where I think it could be a bit more flexible, but overall, I think it’s a reasonable law that makes perfect sense given the realities of Québec.
Not at all, but those laws are
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Specifically aimed at ensuring public safety. You’re going to have trouble convincing me that calling my restaurant “Rick’s Place” instead of “Chez Rick” somehow makes my customers less safe or denies them valid information, and
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Not in any way prohibiting me from saying other things I want to say in the language of my choice. Even if I put ingredient lists on my cereal box in both official languages, I could still adorn the box in German, Chinese, or any other language I felt like.
What does “in better shape” mean? It’s a wholly meaningless phrase. Under such vague terms you could argue exactly the opposite by simply applying different criteria.
Well, sure, as long as they’re accompanied by larger French text. So just construct the opposite case; Ontario orders that all commerical signage must be in English and the English words must be bigger than any other. Would you be okay with that? I’d picket the Legislature and would donate for, and volunteer for, the campaign of any party that promised to reverse that law.
I’m not a populist.
I did not. Despite being told at least twice in this thread when it was, and that it was not the 15th, I did not change my calendar. Some days I’m just stupid; some days I’m just really stupid.
When I was looking for a job in Canada in general, I found that every job advertisement in Quebec for which my professional qualifications suited me, I was unqualified for. Because I do not speak French. Every single job ad required French. Not even a “learn it when you get here”, but fluency as a requirement to apply.
(To be fair, it’s a bit of sour grapes, because they were also all in Montreal, which I wouldn’t want to move to anyway. It’s far too big a city for my taste.)