Not quite. He transferred to Alabama, but apparently didn’t do much of anything while there but have his teeth examined.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40964-2004Feb13.html
Make of this what you will.
Leave it to the Bush apologists to argue that the person best suited to defend the United States from terrorist threats is a guy who was too scared to risk his life in Vietnam, who routinely played hooky whenever possible, and who – at best – only managed to do the bare minimum amount of service required of him. Nice to know where those conservative values really are, eh?
Tsk, tsk, Scylla. You flaunt a link that supports your case “at least one person remembers him being there”. In your haste to defend the Shining One, you neglected to provide more context. Ever alert to protect your reputation, I provide a bit more from the same link.
“…But there was no documentation from the Alabama side. Several members of the Alabama unit that Bush was assigned to have told The Associated Press that they couldn’t recall ever seeing him, while one retired Alabama Guard officer said he remembers Bush showing up for duty…”
True enough, your link does say one person remembers him, though you mildly embellish by casting that statement as being at least one person. It also says “several members…couldn’t recall ever seeing him…” So, in fact, the link you offer provides more evidence against your case than for it.
Perhaps you would be better off arguing with people who can’t read.
The second item you quote is false. There is evidence that we was doing service in Alabama since he had a dental exam there.
I suppose it is possible that that was absolutely the only occasion he showed up and the only thing he did, yet at least one other person also remembers his presence on the base (as I’ve cited)
Records from a dental exam are the kind of documentation we would expect to find after 30 years. From this we can infer a presence.
I make little of your cites in general. Absence of proof is not proof of absence, and there appears to be building corroboration of Bush’s presence in Alabama.
Additionally here:
it states:
and:
So, unless I’m mistaken, he asked to go there. He was given permission to go there. He went there. He had a dental exam there. He has pay stubs from there. And this is all documented and cited. Yes?
I did not “mildly embellish.” Suggesting so is a true embellishment. “At least one” is at least one. There is no embellishment in the statement whatsoever. Your suggestion otherwise is a simple lie.
Similarly, some other people not recalling is not “evidence against my case” It is neither positive nor negative. It is a lack of evidence either way, and not really indicative of anything except that those people asked have nothing to offer on the subject.
Finally, I don’t have a case here. I’m asking you to make yours.
It’s not the likes of y’all Bush worshippers that have to be convinced. It’s the fence sitters.
And, even here in conservative NC, many are rethinking Bush support.
They don’t like the idea of a man who cared so little for his military obligation being commander and chief.
I guess a slacker fits your idea of a good president.
All of the documents which were just released confirm that Bush was AWOL for at least five months. A dental exam is not evidence of service, just evidence that Shrub was still willing to suck the government for free dental care when it suited him (and he probably wanted to hit up the dentist for a painkiller script).
One hazy old fart now claims to vaguely “remember” him. Why he has never remember this before is a mystery and it seems a little convenient that he would pop up right when the Bushies definitely needed to kill this old snake. No one else remembers him, includingg his CO and his papers clearly state that he had never been “observed” at any duties.
Shrub says he remebers showing up, but why can’t he remember what he did. He really can’t remember anything? Not one fucking thing that he did or person he spoke to?
The preponderance of the evidence is overwhelming that he never did shit in Alabama except make poor people pay for teeth cleaning.
Are we really supposed to believe that’s it’s just a lot of lousy luck that GeeDumbya can’t produce a single shred of evidence from all his records to show that he showed up for duty? what happened to those records? there’s nothing missing from Texas.
Asking for proof that Bush never showed up in Alabama is disingenuous. There is a gaping hole in his records and in his pay stubs that he has yet to explain.
Oh. So to your mind, “at least one” means precisely the same as “one”. (I may have to maintain a glossary, a Scyllabus.) “At least one” means “one”, and only “one”, which is what the link states.
“…Your suggestion otherwise is a simple lie…”
Well, I guess it was pretty much inevitable. The ol’ Perfidious Liar[sup]TM[/sup] routine. “When, oh when, will you cease to misrepresent and mischaracterize my posts?!” sung to the tune of “Don’t Cry for Me, Argentina”
“…Finally, I don’t have a case here…”
Got that shit right.
Scylla:
I’m kind of loathe to get into this debate, since the issues deal with values, morals, perceptions, and other such difficult-to-grasp stuff. But, here goes anyway.
First off, there was the suspicion that Bush had done something illegal: namely, that for a period of time during his guard service he was technically AWOL. This period would appear to extend from somewhere in May of 1972, if I’m not mistaken, until the middle of September in the same year. During that period, Bush had requested a transfer from Texas to Alabama. The transfer was denied, but Bush ignored the denial and moved to Alabama anyway. (Your confusion over this points stems from some sloppiness in media coverage. I think.)
In addition, he was scheduled to take a medical in July of 1972 – well, to be more precise, he was legally required to undergo a medical. Since his transfer had been denied, this medical was supposed to take place in Houston, but Bush didn’t show up for it. As a result, he lost his status for flight readiness in August, and to my knowledge never recovered it during his tour of service.
By the way – and perhaps Airman can verify or debunk this, but apparently Bush’s failure to show up for his medical would be a fairly serious violation of his duties in the ANG:
I’m trying to keep up with this thread while I write this, by the way, and it’s a pretty futile task.
Should I just focus for a second on the question of whether or not Bush had permission to move to Alabama, and how that whole situation evolved, as best I can tell? Okay, briefly then:
April/May of 1972: Bush applies to transfer to “9921st Air Reserve Squadron” at Maxwell Airforce Base. The commander of the 9921st welcomes him, and grants him permission for the transfer, but also warns him that the 9921st was a paper unit with no resources that might be decommissioned at any time. Lt. Col. Bricken, I believe his name was, has stated that Bush was “looking for a place to hang his hat,” but never showed up. And the reason he never showed up was….
July 31 1972: Higher ups in TANG’s chain of command rejected Bush’s request for a transfer, because he was technically ineligible for that particular squadron according to “paragraph 30-6 m (4), AFM 35-3.” In other words, Bush was required to serve in a so-called “Ready Reserve position,” and the 9921st was an “Air Reserve Squadron,” whatever that means.
Then, in July 1972, Bush misses his physical. As a result, in August, 1972, he is grounded. A month later, on 5 September 1972, he applies for a second transfer to a “Ready Reserve position” with the 187th Tactical Recon Group. He’s lost his flight status by this point, and has not taken another physical, for reasons unkown. He is supposed to show up for duty in October, but is away attending his grandfather’s funeral, apparently. His appearances from then on out appear to be rather spotty.
Next, according to a number of biographical sources, in January of 1973 Bush goes to work at PULL, a mentorship program for underprivileged kids in downtown Houston. At the same time, apparently, he is regularly showing up for drills in Alabama. On Jan. 6, for example, he has a dental exam, and on the Jan 8-10 he also earns points. Then he disappears, shows up again two months later in April for a two-day drill, shows up again in May, and then between May and July logs in some serious drill time – apparently, although it is possible that the points in his record are from ARF, a “disciplinary unit” somewhere in Colorado. Also, in May, his superiors in Houston (why are his superiors in Houston, when he’s been transferred to Alabama?) state in a report that Bush had “not been observed” in Houston since May of 1972.
Whew.
Anyway, to return to your first point, then: the issue started off with questions regarding whether or not one could claim that Bush was AWOL. But ignoring the legalities of the question for the moment, you also wonder if Bush had done anything “wrong.” And as far as that goes, there appears to be a distinct possibility that he did do something “wrong,” by choosing to slip through TANG’s bureaucracy, ignoring his rejected transfer, failing to show up for his physical, and so forth. In addition, there are a lot of questions surrounding the information that’s been released so far. For example, as the article I previously cited notes, a probe should have been initiated when Bush lost his flight status. Yet there appear to be no records of such a probe or what it turned up. If there are, the White House is keeping them under lock and key.
There’s something else here as well, something kind of hard to express: it has to do with Bush’s rah-rah style of patriotism, with his consciously projected image as the uber-patriot, with the sense that criticizing the president is “unpatriotic,” his description of himself as a “war president,” and so on. Naturally, one wonders how Bush really reacted when he had to put his money where his mouth was. It does not appear that Bush’s record on that point is very flattering, to say the least, and so now perhaps we’re beginning to see that maybe his image is really built on a pack of lies. How embarrassing. So, politically, as I see it, the issue is particularly damaging to Bush’s flag-waving constituency. Should it come out that Bush’s service to the country was less than honorable, he might risk losing an important base of support; people who judge a president on those sorts of qualities.
Finally, it hasn’t helped matters that the White House has been so goddamned secretive about this, flatly refusing to answer direct questions, antagonizing reporters who are trying to get the story straight, and releasing documents in such a tight-fisted manner. First, in an interview last week, Bush promises to release all documents related to this National Guard service. Then, the White House acquires them and sits on them for days while Dan Bartlett goes through them with a fine-toothed comb, apparently looking for incriminating evidence. Then, the only document they release to support the claim that Bush was present in Alabama is a single friggin dental record – pretty surreal. Finally, on Friday, they perform a document dump that, to judge from the media coverage, was equivalent to an Iraqi declaration of “WMD” activities – lots and lots of material, none relevant to the question at hand. And now they’re back to stonewalling again. It’s all very mysterious, and arouses my curiosity. One can hardly help wondering – what on earth are they hiding?
Which ones? Cite it. I’m pretty sure the pay stubs from Alabama, the reference to which I’ve cited do no such thing.
It is proof that he was at a place he was supposed to be and happens to be one of the instances in which there would be a record. Since there is, we can infer reasonably that the fact that there is no record for activities for which we could expect no record, isn’t particularly insidious.
How come he only showed up when people started looking for him? Gimme a break.
Maybe he doesn’t like being called a “hazy old fart.” I certainly wouldn’t want the hostility and scrutiny that this would bring. And, it’s not vaguely remember. He remembers Bush attending and fulfilling his duties, reading safety and flight manuals and socializing with him.
Cite and quote please. I believe this is a falsehood.
Because it was infrequent, unmemorable, and thirty years ago.
There is no evidence saying he never showed up. None. All the “evidence,” pay stubs, dental records, personal recollection by Bush, personal recollection by Calhoun, methodology of National Guard procedures, indicate that Bush was was there.
The pay stubs. The dental records, the personal recollections. These are evidence.
Ok. I’ll notify the mods that you are maintaining sock puppets. When they ask me to prove it, I’ll say their being disingenuous, and you’ll back me up on it, right?
Pay stubs say he served. I’ll quote it again:
“Robert Ficquette, a captain in the unit in 1972, said the pay stubs the White House has displayed indicate Bush did serve at least six days in Alabama.”
You should stop lying. And you started it by claiming I embellished, so you have no cause to whine.
For those interested, the latest from the NY Times.
excerpts as follows:
"On the question of whether he was ever AWOL, that charge appears to be exaggerated based on the balance of evidence available to date…
…Mr. Bush’s payroll records do indeed show that he missed Guard training during eight months between May 1972 and May 1973."
Further on:
“…But records also show that Mr. Bush took several steps to fulfill his Guard obligation, including completing enough extra training after the campaign ended to fulfill at least the minimum annual requirements for retirement purposes…”
"…Still, one major remaining question is why Mr. Bush, who said he wanted to make flying “a lifetime pursuit” when he joined up, failed to take a required annual flight physical in 1972. As a result, records show, he was suspended from flying on Aug. 1, 1972, an action that some Guard officials have said should have set off an inquiry. No records of any such inquiry have been released.
On Friday, White House officials disputed speculation that he skipped the physical because the Air Guard introduced drug testing in 1972. Dan Bartlett, the president’s communication director, said that Mr. Bush did not take the exam because there was no need; the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in Alabama, he said, did not fly the F-102, the fighter jet Mr. Bush was trained to fly in Texas.
But several retired airmen from the 187th said in interviews this week that Mr. Bush could easily have been checked out to fly in the Phantom II, the two-seat reconnaissance jet in use at Dannelly in 1972.
Another question is precisely how Mr. Bush obtained an honorable discharge from the Guard on Oct. 1, 1973, eight months before his six-year commitment ended.
Mr. Bush’s military records should have contained paperwork explaining why he was allowed to leave the Guard early for Harvard, said David McGinnis, a retired brigadier general in the National Guard who was principal director of strategic plans and analysis in the office of the Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs from 1993 to 1997…"
My conclusion: GW dealt with his Guard committment as a privileged person regards an inconvenience. He expected leniency, and recieved it. He performed to minimal acceptable standards. He was released early, under circumstances that will most likely remain shadowy. He cannot reasonably be charged as “AWOL” or “deserter” precisely because his committment rested so lightly on his shoulders. If Kerry had cut and run, he could reasonably be called a deserter, his circumstances were such that lives depended on him. No one depended on young Lt. Bush, and that’s probably just as well.
Svin:
Well at least one person has actually done what I asked and made a case. Thanks:
I’ve read that, but was unable to find the documentation to back this up. Can you cite it?
I understand this as well. Considering the circumstances it does not seem unusual to me. Bush was not staying in the Guard. The war was over, and he would not be flying, as the aircraft he was qualified for was obsolete.
From this cite:
I’m not sure this is correct. The Vietnam was was over. Bush was leaving the guard. His aircraft was obsolete. It seems pretty straightforward.
As for the other complaint, which is that Bush ended his career with the National Guard in lackadaisical fashion. Yes. He did.
As I said. The war was over. He had decided not to stay with the Guard. His plane was obsolete. He was going to go to Harvard.
Was he phoning it in?
Absolutely.
Correct me if I’m wrong…but didn’t the war end in 1975?
Elucidator:
So you aren’t accusing Bush of being Awol. OK.
It appears though you are accusing Bush of changing his mind. Flying was supposed to be a lifetime pursuit, but he changed his mind and went to Business school.
Naturally since he was leaving the Guard and going to business school he did not choose get training on an alternate aircraft. Presumably because he didn’t have much time left in his commitment the Guard didn’t think it was worth it to make him get trained on an alternate aircraft.
I don’t see anything “shadowy” about Bush leaving the guard because “I changed my mind, the war was over, my plane was obsolete, I wanted to go to business school and my time was almost up so they let me out early.” But you may see shadows where you choose.
In the final analysis Bush stayed true to his commitment to make flying a lifelong pursuit. Just recently for example, I recall he landed on an Aircraft Carrier.
Hopefully he collected a stub so he can prove it 30 years from now.
In other words, elucidator, there’s nothing on him that’s going to resonate with voters. The “carrier landing” stunt wins out.
Gomez: I digested your link from tompaine.com. Great stuff. Problem is, it reads like The Mirror Cracked. Not that there’s anything wrong with Agatha Christie, but do you think Joe “kill Islam for whut it done to our towers” Sixpack can understand the finer points of the story?
.
I’ve reached a similar conclusion but I think you’ve gone at least a bit overboard in your spin. It’s highly likely that privelige played a part (probably a large part) in his acceptance to the Guard, but he certainly could have leveraged that previlege into something more cushy than training to be a fighter pilot. There is evidence of “slacking” during the Alabama period, but I don’t think it’s fair to characterize his entire time served thusly. His performance ratings as a pilot were always quite good, and he was noted for good military discipline and leadership abilities. Given that, I think there is every reason to believe that had he been placed in combat where lives depended on his actions, he would have comported himself admirably.
As for how this whole flap was handled politically, I think it’s going to turn out fine. There may be a few morsels turned up by the press hounds early next week, but I fully expect this to be a dead news item by the end of the week. As the coverage of this ramps down, the coverage of the gay marriage issue will be ramping up, with no small thanks to the good folks in CA.
There is a big giant gap in the paystubs and the ones which do exist do not say what he did or where he did it.
Nonsense. A dentist appointment proves only that he was in the state of Alabama. they don’t prove he ever showed up for duty. There are no paystubs for five months. Nobody remembers him and the documentation says he was never observed.
Some record of duties in the ANG along with corresponding paystubs would definitely be expected. The consistent 5 month gap in his records, no matter how much he releases leaves no honest room for doubt that he never felt an obligation to show up for duty.
People have been looking for years. AWOL Bush has had a standing cash reward since 2000 for anyone who can remember the Shrubster. No one said squat. Now, when the Bushies are drowning in the polls and getting bombarded with this issue, a magical ol fart with a conveniently non-committal memeory pops up.
Oh, hell, he’s a hero to the right. Bush lovers are not an oppressed minority. They’re not the ones getting hauled up before grand juries and herded into “free speech zones.” It’s a very good world to be a Bush defender.
Dates? Other witnesses? What specific duties? He remembers nothing that can actually be confirmed or falsified.
I got my doc mixed up. I was thinking of this one from the Texas ANG.
I mixed it up with this one from the Bammy ANG.
Also check out this bad attendance reprimand.
Then how dioes he know that he went. I find it rather curious that he’s definitely sure that he went but can’t remeber a damn thing that he did. What exactly does he rember so well? Does he remember driving to the base before everything goes black? What a weird memory.
There is no shred of evidence that Bush ever showed up for duty even once. Piling a bunch of irrelevant stuff together does not make a case.
They are evidence that he got his teeth checked and got paid for something (we know not where). They do not prove that he ever showed up for duty.
There is a strong prima facie case that Bush never showed up for duty. He has at least a five month gap in service and in pay that he cannot account for. his CO in Alabama says he never saw Bush. On one else can remember him either. The prosecuters case has been made. the burden now shifts to the defense to prove that he did show up.
Pay stubs showed that he got paid in Alabama. they don’t say what he did or where he did it. Even so, he still has five months unaccounted for. It only takes 30 days to make him a deserter.
Denied Application for Reassignment
Friend Reeder is correct, Saigon did not fall until 1975. So at this time, there was at least one Viet Nam war going on.
Lt. Bush did not report for his physical. This is not optional, orders to report do not contain phrases like “if you find it convenient” or “unless your future plans render this moot”. Failure to be where you are supposed to be, when ordered to do so, and in the absence of any permission to do otherwise, is precisely what Absent Without Official Leave means. Precisely that. Clearly, this is a minor example of AWOL, but if they had wanted to be pricks about it, he could have been brought up on charges.
His plane was obsolete, but there are other planes, as indicated by Big Svin’s post above. As to his decision not to continue his military career, I was not advised that this was an option. I had no idea that the terms of enlistment were so flexible. I thought you pretty much had to do what they tell you.
“…and my time was almost up so they let me out early.” Well, eight months early. Rather a lot, to my eye, not quite “almost up”. Tomato, tomato.
“Just recently for example, I recall he landed on an Aircraft Carrier.”
Droll. Very droll. That is, giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming you’re kidding.