The case for Israel

Great Debates
1

Let me make a point: The land of Israel is occupied. By the Arabs.

The following document will show it, factually and unambiguously.

The document will be posted in parts b/c of its length, in this thread or in a new one.

This document, as befitting the most ancient national entity still existing, the Jewish Nation, was written long ago, in 1936, but its veracity is there until this very day, and will be there always, for facts are facts.

What happens now in Israel is tragic, but this is the way liberation struggles are, always, everywhere. I hate occupation by anyone of anyone.

Israel case is clear b/c Israel can make a claim for it as few, if any, can.

So let’s see what history has to say about the “HISTORICAL CONNECTION 0F THE JEWISH PEOPLE WITH PALESTINE” (remember, it was written originally in '36, so the name Israel wasn’t there. Yet.)

Note: A not so known fact about the Arab presence in Israel.
UNRWA - United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, chose to define at the time the term “refugee” as one who came to Israel as recently as 1946, just two short years before the 1948 war, which is Israel’s War of Independence . This should say volumes about the Arab occupation of the land. And they came from as far as Iraq, b/c they could find work b/c of the Jewish return, which triggered an economic boom in all of the MidEast.

HISTORICAL CONNECTION 0F THE JEWISH PEOPLE WITH PALESTINE THE JEWISH AGENCY FOR PALESTINE
Jerusalem, 1946

This is a revised edition of the Memorandum submitted by the Jewish Agency for Palestine to the Palestine Royal Commission in November, 1936.

“Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country…”
From the Preamble to the Mandate for Palestine.

INTRODUCTION
The association of the Jewish people with the land of Palestine presents an historical phenomenon as singular as the survival of that people itself. It would, indeed, appear that the two phenomena are closely inter-related, for historical experience has shown that this attachment to the ancient home has been a potent factor in maintaining the identity of the Jewish People during their long exile. It was in Palestine that the Jews went through the unique experience of the spirit which has for all time shaped their character and destiny. But that experience has also exercised an indelible influence on the land of Palestine. It has fixed its place in the history of mankind. No other people of the many that possessed it has left so deep a mark on that ancient land. No other has been so
profoundly affected by it. When the Jewish Commonwealth was destroyed by the might of Imperial Rome, the Jews became a homeless and exiled people. They ceased to be a political force in the life of mankind. Equally so, the land of Palestine disappeared from the political map of the world. It became a backward
province of successive empires. It never again attained indigenous statehood. It was only in the Balfour Declaration that both the Jewish People and the land of
Palestine reappeared as political entities. It gave international recognition both to the people and to the land, and it did so by holding out the promise of their
reunion. The wheel of history has turned full circle.

2

No, that would be China.

3

China? I’m yet to be covinced. But that’s beside the point, you understand it, right?

4

Speaking as someone who supports the continued existence of the state of Israel as, at the very least, an appropriate fait accompli, I have to say that the “ancient historical association” ( i.e. “We were here first!” ) argument cuts no ice with me. Never has.

And this topic has been hashed over here before, ad infinitum. But that’s no reason not to do so again, I suppose :).

5

I also find it hard to give a fuck about historical claims. Israel started in 1948. They maintain their existence with a top-tier military and from being surrounded by doofuses who couldn’t find a clue with a map and a guide. More power to 'em.

6

The wife and I are two more supporters of Israel. The wife has even spent a lot of time in Jerusalem, due to a project that she was in charge of, living there for weeks at a time on more than one occasion. We have friends there, too, as a result of that time. The country seems to have its shit together better than most in that area. The Palestinians don’t like their situation? Well gee, maybe it would help to stop firing all those rockets at Israel!

Strange, though, but there is some sort of Israeli mafia in some cities in East and Southeast Asia. For instance, In Osaka, Japan, I recall Israeli street vendors near the train station who were controlled by an Israeli syndicate. Whether they were Jewish or not was never mentioned, but from Israel. Maybe Hong Kong, too. Here in Bangkok, several guesthouses will not accept Israeli guests after having had a lot of trouble with some, although I’ve not heard of an Israeli mafia here. Again, it’s not a religious aversion like the Thais do tend to have with Muslims, but rather a nationality issue. Israelis, not Jews, have a bad rep in this city. On the other hand, there are certain guesthouses that specialize in the Israeli trade.

7

Egypt?

8

How do you explain the Yom Kippur War, then?

I think it was a brilliantly planned attack by disparate forces which couldn’t consolidate their gains before the Israelis recovered from the strategic and tactical surprises that they were dealt. The opposing military forces did fail to exploit or even maintain the gains from the first strikes, but that the first strikes did succeed so devastatingly goes a long way to denying the simple title “doofuses” for their enemies.

I don’t disagree with your claim that the Israeli military is more effective than that of their neighbors, but I do not agree with the characterization that all those neighbors are comic opera forces.

9

The Yom Kippur War was a brilliantly planned attack? Are you serious?

You can’t declare a brilliant military attack just because you had a few troops inside of someone’s border for less than TWO DAYS after you make a surprise attack, and then subsequently get the ever-loving crap beaten out of you.

Isreal’s neighbors are indeed military doofuses, especially if you’re using the Yom Kippur war as a measuring stick.

10

Major supporter of Israel here- one of those fearer Christian Zionists, but danbar, please do discuss. This appears to be the first of a big copy&paste series that doesn’t do well here.

11

Sorry…I’m a pretty big supporter of Israel and it’s right to a continued existence and I don’t buy any of that historical claims BS either. They have the right to exist because they have the ability and will to continue to exist despite their hostile (though inept as Bryan Ekers pointed out) neighbors.

It’s really as simple as that. Harsh…but simple.

Or did you perhaps want to give the US back to the natives? Toss out the Australians in favor of the aborigines? Japan back to the Ainu? England back to the Beaker peoples? France back to…well, never mind. Who would want it?

:wink:

-XT

12

Danbar: I personally think that people who were born in Europe and other parts of the world have more right to Palestine than the people born there, simply because of their Jewish religion and/or ethnicity.

BTW, can you post your address so we can send the Palestinians we kick out of the middle-east to live with you?

13

I’m not sure that Americans should really want to go down the “historical associations” route.

14

My research conclusively shows that somewhere upwards of 96% of the world population lives in a country they did not inhabit as recently as one century ago. I begin to suspect we’ll never get it all sorted out.

15

Incidentally, doesn’t the Bible say that the Israelites stole the land from the Canaanites – i.e, the native Palestinians?

here are much better arguments for the Israeli state than the historical one. That’s probably the weakest one of all.

16

I’m with you here.

After thousands of years being kicked in the nuts by nations all over the world, they (the Jewish people) decided that enough was enough.

Good on 'em

17

To be fair, if we’re going back that far we can see the historical Jews doing a fair bit of nut-kicking themselves.

18

Egypt might have been civilized longer, but its ancient culture is dead; China still has the same national culture it had in the Stone Age.

19

Yes. But that story, like the Exodus and the united kingdom of David and Solomon, is probably a pack of lies. See The Bible Unearthed, by Finkelstein and Silberman.

20

Thank you, guys, for your mostly congenial replies and for your genuine interest in the matter.

I read all of the answers and comments, and I want to say some about some. Pardon me for not mentioning the names of those to whom I reply, but you’ll locate yourselves, I’m sure.

Discuss vs Copy&Paste form of conversation - If you will take the time to read what I have to show, you’ll find yourself in the possession of some info that you were not before, at least most of you. The note at the end of the initial post is an example of it.

Ancient nation - China is indeed old, probly more than 4k yrs, but it’s so mixed w foreigners, precisely b/c of its policy to coopt their enemies, that it’s hard to count it as one. The Manchu people is one example of the policy.
Jews are around for about 4k yrs, also (2k - AD era + ~1350 from the Exodus to 0 AD + 400 in Egypt + a few hundreds in Israel before it = ~ 4k yrs), all w **uninterrupted ** tie to their ancestry and religion, not so little a thing.

Historical Claim - The Jewish claim is not your run of the mill claim - “I was there once, therefore… blah-blah, blah-blah”.
Here comes the very, very important, and pertinent, part of the argument: They were in the land uniterruptedly, b/c many Jews stayed in Israel **after ** the exile. You’ll find descriptive stats about it in the document further on.
Another supportive argument is the fact that the Jews vowed to never forget nor renounce their right for their ancestral land, as shown in their daily prayers, their communal celebrations and festivities, the familial events, like weddings, briths, bar/bat- mitsvahs, and so on.
This aspect of the continued commitment of an entire dispersed nation to its craddle, is something that cannot be dismissed. It shows determination, unwavered commitment and dedication to a goal, that is to be honored.

Arab occupation of the land - The Arabs were brought first into the equation by the Romans to quell the revolt, in ~ 70 AD. They were around, but not in.
Second Arab usurping of the local population the Jews, was w the inception of Islam w its Holy Jihad for its spread, as commanded by the Qur’an.

Thanks again for the interest.

Next, another ch. of the document.

Danbar