In this thread John Mace claims the Catholic church (the org not individuals) would not ban the use of contraceptives in this country if they had the opportunity.
They have acted consistent with this belief in other parts of the world where they have fought the legalization of birth control.
They also filed briefs or publicly stated outrage in this country when the Supreme court heard,
Griswold_v._Connecticut Which involved birth control and married couples
Eisenstadt v. Baird Which involved birth control and non-married couples
Carey v. Population Services Which struck down laws limiting distribution to minors
All off these actions consistent with their stated beliefs as linked to above.
So I ask is there any realistic evidence that the Catholic church would not assist in passing a ban the use of contraceptivs in this country if they had the opportunity?
You brought up the Comstock Laws from the late 1800s, which I’m not really familiar with and which I would not be surprised if the RCC (as well as every other Church) supported. I’m not really thinking of what went on over 100 years ago.
Right now, does the RCC advocate making contraception illegal in the US? I can’t cite a negative, so you need to cite something where they actually call for that. Not an amicus filing in Lawrence (which was about sodomy), but an actual advocacy statement that contraception should be illegal.
If it’s such a big deal for the RCC, it should be easy to find such a cite.
I never said anything about what the Church would do if they had the power to establish law. If this were a RCC Theocracy, birth control probably would be illegal. But it’s not a theocracy, and the RCC is not currently lobbying for birth control to be illegal, to the best of my knowledge. If they are, it should be easy to find evidence of it.
If all you’re going to do is regurgitate the same cites that didn’t prove your case in the other thread, why open this thread? They don’t prove your case here either, and I’m not going to repeat what I said in the other thread.
Render unto caeser and all that seems to resolve this issue. If they haven’t managed to get Italy to outlaw it then why do you think they would anywhere else? The modern church is a bit different since Vatican 2.
They certainly don’t want the government promoting its use. But I can’t see that they are trying to get the government to outlaw it. You’d have to believe that they are also trying to criminalize masturbation, since the OP’s “cites” treat those two issue equally.
I didn’t imagine you would have much more to add to the thread, I was hoping to get an answer proving or disproving my thread
So lets recap:
The Catholic church openly states that Contraceptives are a Grave Sin
The Catholic church in the past actively fought against contraceptives being ruled legalized.
The Catholic church currently fights against the legalization and or distribution of contraceptives world wide.
The Pope has called for all Catholics to use their numbers and power in politics in order to pass laws that further Catholic doctrine and to fight against those who go against Catholic doctrine.
I have no doubt if they had an opening, like with prop 8 they would push for it with birth control, it would be disingenuous for them to not do so.
The often ignore DNRs and refuse to follow death with dignity laws at catholic hospitals, unless you have evidence that “Render unto caeser” is an actual doctrine?
I know of the bible quote but the fact it is in the bible has little to do with it being church policy.
There is a group called “Priest for Life” which is a pro-life group ran by Catholic priests. I suspect the emphasis is on the “priests” because as individual citizens they are still allowed to form political interest groups as long as it is operated separately from the RCC. I don’t want to quibble so I’m also going to bet that the hierarchy of the RCC both tolerates and actively supports its priests being involved in political groups like this. Even though I doubt you’ll find clear and compelling evidence of that, I’m willing to concede its likelihood.
Pulled right from the pages of the Priests for Life website:
The Priests for Life pretty much do say they are for civil law outlawing abortion. For that matter I don’t doubt that the RCC is in favor of outlawing abortion, for the simple fact I don’t think the RCC sees abortion as a matter of private morality, but as a crime against an innocent. The RCC has always been much more active in going against what it views as State action against innocents. The RCC is clearly against the death penalty, against pro-choice laws, and generally is extremely anti-war under the argument that no war can be just and any killing in a war is a crime against both God and man. However, on issues like divorce, cheating on your spouse, and other failings of “personal morality” I’ve seen no real indication that the Church either explicitly or implicitly is in favor of Catholic teachings being enshrined in law.
The Priests for Life page makes it clear that genuine contraceptives (as opposed to things like the morning after pill) “prevent the creation of life” and thus are not morally in the same universe as abortion. So they support outlawing abortion because they oppose any law that kills any human (death penalty, declarations of war, abortion legalization etc) but I’ve not seen any evidence the Church wants to impose all of its views as law. This isn’t the Middle Ages, the Church (for all its ills) isn’t the Church of 500 years ago.
While I generally detest the fact most people lack the intellectual rigor to throw off the idiocy of belief in the supernatural, as far as organized religious groups go I think the RCC is a lot more moderate and willing to embrace the modern world than most.
What’s strange is Protestants are so “okay” with contraception. Virtually no Protestant church teaches that contraception is a sin any longer. Starting in the 1930s Protestants dropped that ideology. I think most of them preach that any pre-marital sex is a sin, and that you need to always practice abstinence, but I’ve noticed they remain silent on contraception. The Protestants were actually the ones who had advocated for anti-contraception laws to be put on the books in the late 19th and early 20th century.
On most issues like science, education, economics, health care, and the environment the Catholic Church is essentially a leftist’s wet dream (in fact in communist countries in South America there was often strong associations between socialists and the RCC.)
I think when you have “Priests for Life” saying they don’t know of any Catholic Bishop who would support outlawing contraception, I think that’s pretty solid evidence that the Church isn’t advocating contraception be illegal in the United States.
But it’s essentially a classic logical fallacy to ask someone to prove a negative. I don’t have to prove the RCC doesn’t do something, if you believe the RCC advocates for contraception to be legally prohibited you need to show some evidence for it. All you’ve shown so far are amicus curiae briefs on mostly unrelated issues, and statements from a Catholic website that just reiterate what is known doctrine as has been preached by like all the 20th century Popes: that the use of contraception is mortal sin. That is not evidence that the RCC supports outlawing contraception.
Just finding vague cites that they advocate Catholics support laws “consistent with the Catholic faith” isn’t some sort of catch all, either. Catholic faith teaches that the use of contraception is a sin, not that it has to be outlawed.
If you look at the stuff put out there by Catholic political groups on abortion, it’s really obvious the Church openly supports abortion being illegal. I suspect because for the Church they view it almost as a sin of omission to not try and fight what they view as the murder of innocent life. But for an issues of “private conscience” that does not impact other innocent life, the position I’ve always seen the Church preach is that you need to follow the will of God absolutely, not be weak, and et cetera–that you have to self-regulate.
I will say I have always thought the RCC being okay with “Natural Family Planning” is some of the most strained logic ever. But if you’re familiar at all with the RCC you’d be amazed at how tightly they can weave a doctrinal argument to justify just about anything they want.
A plain reading of prior Catholic teachings would make it pretty apparent that timing sex so that you can have it for pleasure but with a much diminished opportunity to reproduce (the RCC goes so far as to teach techniques to monitor the woman for signs of ovulation and etc) is basically the same thing as “coitus interruptus.” Sure, it doesn’t involve coitus but I think it’s theoretically the same thing. Instead of just always pulling out, you’re making sure you’re only having sex when you have no fear of the male’s sperm encountering an egg.
The unfortunate part is that many forms of the pill have multiple effects, some will prevent implantation too, it is my understanding that they are also considered abortion because the egg is still fertilized?
That is my understanding.
As I responded in the other thread before I saw you moved over.
I think the major difference is that suffering is not an absolute evil in the catholic church.
Not that it is a universal good either but I think protestants protestants have mostly accepted birth control due to the reduction in suffering.
Women who take birth control actually tend to have fewer partners and obviously fewer Abortions, although as individuals they are more likely to have an abortion, the number is lower
In my mind, which is not a Catholic one that harm reduction portion overrules any religious exception.
I would never want to force a Catholic to use birth control, but watching them fight to keep it on the books and also refusing it to non-members is a bit frustrating.
I think one of the problems is you’re just talking about contraception generally, and yet in your cites they distinguish between “contraceptives” and “abortifacients.” Your cite says, “Except for efforts to exclude abortifacients, I do not know a single Catholic bishop who would favor civil legislation against birth control. It is either ignorance or trickery to pretend that the bishops would try to bring about such legislation.” (emphasis added) “Abortifacients” include IUDs and the Pill. So no, they won’t try to make condoms or diaphragms illegal, but most everything else? Not so clear.