"The Cherokee Own Chattanooga"--says World Court?

Prior to the Trail Of Tears, the US Supreme Court ruled that the Cherokee owned the land they lived on, legally, by treaty & by common law. They could not, legally, be removed.

Andrew Jackson publicly stated the if the Chief Justice wanted things that way, he could go out and enforce his ruling himself. The last sentence is close paraphrasing of the President’s words.

Jackson then sent the US Army to forcably remove the Cherokee from the land.

The US Federal government used violent, extralegal means to force a migration of a minority group and deprive them of the land, property, and–in some cases–their lives, in defiance of its own courts and laws.

If the Cherokee took their case to the World Court to reclaim their land today, would they have a viable case? Would the Cherokee have a chance of success? (Not the same thing, IMHO.)

Would, in fact, the Cherokee own Chattanooga, much of North Georgia, & part of Tennessee?

My guess is the same thing would happen as if they took their case to the Supreme Court. A ruling that said that the US violated their own law, but it’s really too late to reverse it now. At most they’d get a monetary settlement.

I doubt it – I don’t know the World Court’s exact system, but I’m guessing that they don’t do ex post facto rulings – that is, they don’t rule in cases that occurred before they were established.

Even if, by some miracle, the Cherokee prevailed, I’m afraid that the US would tell the World Court essentially what Jackson told the Supreme Court. The US isn’t known for our cooperation skills.

Daniel

Bosda

Great thread!

I will try to participate, but please understand that my emotions get the best of me with this topic. Especially if some nearsighted bastard revisionist walks in and tries to plead that we understand Andy’s “plight”.

Yes.

No.

There was a lengthy case, with a settlement, regarding the claims of the Oneida Indians, which would have constituted about the middle third of upstate New York, about 20 years ago.

My hunch: the Cherokee would find that under that precedent they are entitled, not to title to the original land, but to (substantial) compensation for having had it forcibly removed from their possession.

The Cherokee signed the land over by treaty. Now, you can argue that the “Chiefs” who signed the treaty lacked authority to do so, or that the treaty was obtained by bribery and other nefarious means, and you’d undoubtedly be right, but proving all of that 170 years later might present a few evidentiary problems.

Supposing a foreign government that wanted to still things up for the US backed the Cherokee in their case, politically & financially?

Say…Libya? Or China?

How might this effect things?

I would really have posted this before Polycarp, but I went to dig up a few cites. So, in the guise of a supporting role for Poly (& I want you to remember this :wink: ) see:

http://www.uticaod.com/news/specialreports/oneidas/7Mar_2002.htm

http://www.oneida-nation.net/Q-A1.HTML

http://www.perm.org/articles/a080.html (under New York)

Libertarian wrote:

(Hmm. Now why do I think that might be directed at me?)

OK, it’s true that I’m a bastard, and my eyesight is a little off, but “revisionist?” Sir, I must object! You were the one rewriting history the better to justify your grudge. Shall I link that thread?

Libertarian wrote:

(Hmmm. Now why do I think he might be talking about me?)

OK, it’s true that I’m a bastard, and my eyesight is a little off, but “revisionist?” Sir, I must object! You were the one rewriting history the better to justify your grudge. Shall I link that thread?

Sir, my family was there. I don’t give a flying… excuse me, let me start over.

Whatever mitigating circumstance you might offer is insufficient. I don’t know what has motivated your crusade against the Cherokee, but I would ask that you be mindful that these inoffensive people have already suffered enough.

I am not on any crusade against the Cherokee. (Given my own Cherokee ancestry, that could be a confusing exercise.)

I just don’t think history comes in black and white.

And I don’t believe the Cherokee must be treated or should be treated as the sacred cows of American history.

spoke-: There is a difference between being Cherokee and having Cherokee ancestry.

This thread is not asking for the Cherokee to be treated as the USA’s sacred cow, what it asks (quite clearly) is:

You’ve expressed your opinion that they signed the land over by treaty but now you don’t appear interested in debating those questions any further, only in continuing the feud you have with Libertarian. How’s about you stop the hijack, huh?

To answer the OP’s questions:

  1. Yes, the Cherokee have a viable case.

  2. Depends what you call success. Land returned to them? No way. Compansation and the moral victory that a ruling saying the USA took the land illegally would provide? Maybe.

Hijack? I am just defending myself. Please note that Libertarian is the one who sent a shot across my bow. Please direct your hijack concerns to him.

And my comment about sacred cows was directed at Lib, who clearly would have us regard the Cherokee as such (just read his other posts on the subject), and not at the OP.

Hi there. My name is Sofa, and I research American Indian land claims, among other things. I can’t make any statements about such a case being brought to an extranational court, but I can tell you what the Cherokee chances of success would be if it were brought against the United States in U.S. courts. So, would the Cherokee have a chance of success in federal court?

My initial answer to the question is, “probably not.”

I base this authoritative answer upon the following:

[ul]
[li] The Cherokee signed a number of treaties with the United States, in 1791, 1794, 1798, 1804, 1805, 1806, 1816, 1848, 1866, and 1868. This according to Kappler’s Indian Affairs, Vol. II: Treaties. I’m not going to look at all of those treaties to check, but the general pattern works like this: the purpose of most treaties is to equitably cede land held by a tribe to the United States, sometimes in compensation for land elsewhere, sometimes for other things. Generally, there is no statute of limitations on treaties, which is why they are still important today. But, if the United States has failed to keep up its end of the treaty, it is not required to return any ceded land. Instead, it must meet its end of the bargain, hopefully with interest. We can assume most Cherokee lands were conveyed by treaty.[/li]
[li] Sometimes treaties were conducted in bad faith. Tribes were sometimes (in my experience, always) inadequately compensated for the land they conveyed to the U.S. In about 1948 or so, Harry Truman set up an administrative court called the Indian Claims Commission. The ICC’s mission was to address all tribal claims against illegaly alienated land, improperly compensated land, and many other similar violations. Tribes again were not entitled to the return of any land conveyed. Instead they were paid large sums of money in return for releasing their claim to the land. The ICC decided cases for over thirty years before it was eventually packed up. Looking at my Index to the Decisions of the Indian Claims Commission, which only goes to 1973, I see that no less than seventeen opinions were issued by the ICC regarding various bands of Cherokee claims. That probably means that most of the treaty loose ends have since been tied off. We can assume title to most Cherokee lands not conveyed by treaty was extinguished before the ICC.[/li]
[li] There are still plenty of Indian land claims out there. Today, by far the most popular sort of claims are based on the 1790 Indian Non-Intercourse Act. In a nutshell, the Non-Intercourse Act states that land held in trust for an Indian tribe by the United States (what we usually call “reservation” or “reserved title” land) cannot be conveyed except by the express approval of Congress. Ever. [/li]
The Oneida case cited above is one of the classic examples. Officials from New York state went up to Oneida and impersonated federal agents. They told the Oneida that if they didn’t sign these (fake) treaties, they’d have trouble. The Oneida signed over a lot of land to New York. But the United States didn’t approve the deal, so the deal in essence never happened according to explicit law, and that fact cannot be subverted by statute of limitations, squatter’s rights, laches, adverse possession or anything else, period. That’s why the Oneida can quite rightly sue people living on that alienated reservation land today. They are suing the residents, by the way, because even though the Supreme Court told New York to pay up big bucks in return for an official cession of title by the Oneidas and the United States, the state refuses to pay. The lawsuit was intended to get the state off its ass, but it isn’t working, which just goes to show that being right in America ain’t worth jack shit without the muscle to back it up.

But the important thing about Non-Intercourse claims is that they usually involve stolen reservation land. If the Cherokees were guaranteed a reservation, then removed from that reservation without compensation and without Congress explicitly approving the deal, then they might have a claim, but even if they did the total land area which was alienated in such a fashion is likely small, and probably doesn’t include Chattanooga. We can assume that the remaining land which has Cherokee title is in the hands of the Cherokees today, and what isn’t isn’t very much at all.

[li] There is a final possibility, which is that of aboriginal title. Aboriginal title might possibly be asserted if the Cherokee occupied land which they never willingly ceded, which they never relinquished by treaty, for which they were never compensated by the ICC, and which was never converted into reserved title. This is highly unlikely, in my opinion, but not impossible. A couple of years ago the Miami of Oklahoma entered just such a claim against the state of Illinois, and I was tasked to examine their argument. It was surprisingly air-tight, but it may also be unique.[/li][/ul]

The bottom line is that most, if not all, of the Cherokee lands not currently held in trust for the Cherokee by the United States is land that was legally conveyed, although the legal path is often a heartbreakingly rocky one. However, I see very weird shit in my work practically every day, so I again make only the rather limp assertion of “probably not.”

Hope that helped some, and wasn’t too long or technical. Feel free to grill me as much as you like. I’ll try to make myself available at points over the weekend.

–Sofa King, who by coincidence discovered a couple of years ago that he, too, is of partial Cherokee descent.

I’m sorry. Somewhere in all that gobbledygook I was supposed to say this:

The chances are very good that despite Andrew Jackson’s move, the Cherokee lands were legally conveyed to the United States after the fact. Without reading them, my guess would be that the conveyances are legitimized in the treaties of 1848, 1866 and 1868, and any remnant claim was probably covered before the Indian Claims Commission.

I might also add that before the ICC, and now occasionally afterward, similar cases were placed before the federal Court of Claims. If one really wanted to cover all the bases, you’d check to see if the Cherokee ever brought suit there, as well as all the other venues I described above.

Couldn’t they plead coercion, intimidation & threat?

Following Worcester vs. Georgia (1832), wherein the United States Supreme Court effectively struck down Jackson’s “Indian Removal Act” by recognizing the Cherokee as a sovereign nation, the United States signed a treaty with a renegade Cherokee faction, called “The Treaty Party”, headed by Major Ridge, his son John, and Buck Oolwatie (aka Elias Boudinot).

Major Ridge was born Kahnungdatlageh (Man Who Walks on the Mountaintop) in 1771, and was 1/4 Cherokee. He was a minor chief who received the military title of “Major” from Jackson after organizing a band of Cherokee militia to assist Jackson in his war against the Creek.

It was in December, 1835 that the illegal treaty was signed. (It was illegal because only Chief Ross, the Cherokee Principle Chief was authorized to sign treaties on behalf of the Cherokee Nation.) Ridge himself, now wealthy, and accompanied by his renegades, abandoned his home and tribe and moved to Oklahoma in 1836, well ahead of the Trail of Tears, stopping along the way to meet with Jackson at Hermitage.

Principle Chief Ross had quickly gathered more than 16,000 signatures to protest the treaty. But Indian Hater Jackson ignored Ross and railroaded the illegal treaty, called “The Treaty of New Echota”, through Congress.

Major Ridge was tried and convicted of treason by the Cherokee nation, and was executed six months after the survivors of the people he betrayed arrived in Oklahoma. His son and Buck Oolwatie were executed shortly thereafter.

If Jackson’s defiance of the Supreme Court and recognition of treaties signed by renegade traitors is the United States’ idea of what is legal, then rest assured that nothing is sacred and no one is safe.

Giving the land back would be implausible.
Compensation is likewise unworkable: it would be robbing Mary to pay back Paul for something Jim did. Even if Jim were still around, even Jim back then didn’t have enough to repay the harm he caused.

At this point, moral vindication and official apology seems all that is plausible, and it boggles the mind that anyone could possibly want to play it down it, given that nothing else but the meager reward of history can be offered at this point

An admission of full responsibility and an unqualified apology would mean much more than money.