The Chinese are Upset with Us

Great Debates
81

I, for one, am getting a little bored with China acting like a sullen child about every damn thing anyone ever says about it. Yes, I do think the Western press is too quick to criticize. But China needs to stop this “you are all against us” act and start acting like a grown-up. If you have something to say, say it with facts, not this “you’re not our mother you can’t tell us what to do neener-neerer” business. I don’t think they quite realize that nobody else on this planet is in the least bit concerned with China’s ego and just wishes they would get over themselves and start working with the rest of the damn planet so we can get back down to the business of making money.

In my opinion, China understands it’s stability is going to be in great danger when their economy slows down- which it will have to, eventually. They are preparing by ramping up nationalism and anti-western sentiment, hoping that this can keep their government together when the “we’ll make you get richer and richer forever” promise starts to falter. I predict more and more of this sort of thing.

In any case, 99% of my students don’t even know the internet is censored. They just figure that half the Internet is broken or something. The degree that people in China just don’t care about, it seems to me, much of anything, is unbelievable.

Did you open your eyes? Lhasa right now has armed (largely Han) police in full riot gear on the street corners and snipers on the roofs. The tallest building in all of Tibet is the Chinese police station. Outside of Lhasa, fearsomely modern military installations loom over earthen villages. And those villages? Ask them how old their houses are. They will gladly point out the places in the hills where their villages and temples once stood. Say what you like- and I say this as someone who acknowledges that Tibet has no chance of political independence any time soon- it is an occupied territory.

82

Right on sven. I’m also getting tired of China’s whining lately. The US has been kissing their ass too much lately. You don’t like us selling military equipment to Taiwan? Stop propping up that nutbar in North Korea. You don’t want us talking to the Dalai Lama? Stop vetoing every fucking resolution in the UN about sanctions against Iran.
Obama has been playing too nice with China, he needs to tell them to stfu (diplomatically of course) until they are through making our life as hard as possible.

83

I think he kind of just did that.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100201/pl_nm/us_usa_china

84

http://en.rian.ru/world/20091124/156965337.html Do stories like this get a lot of publicity in China.

85

Couldn’t possibly be because there are so many violent riots in Tibet that are instigated by religious and nationalist extremists, could it? That’s what smart governments do when small groups of zealots start burning, stabbing, and destroying: they move armed authorities into the area to arrest the criminals and maintain order. Can you name even one single country where rioters are allowed to just run amok and no cops or armed forces troops will be called in to do anything?

And don’t even start with the, “it’s justified because the Tibetans want their country back” garbage. What a crock. The 2008 riots were race riots, plain and simple. Anyone who didn’t look Tibetan got smashed. in America we’d all denounce it as “mob violence” and cheer the police on for keeping order. But when it happens in China it becomes an “heroic stuggle for human rights in the face of oppression.” Give me a break. There’s no excuse for burning down hospitals and mosques and schools and there’s also no excuse for calling that “a struggle for human rights.”

Also, I thought I had mentioned that I didn’t believe the claims of decimation of Tibetan culture, not anything related to the troops or police in Tibet (which, in light of Tibet’s security situation, I find to be completely normal). Yes, I did open my eyes in Lhasa, and I saw plenty of temples, rock paintings, prayer wheels, and all kinds of other traditional Tibetan cultural items everywhere I looked. What’s more, they were actually being used, not just laying in museums. I also heard Tibetan far more than I heard Chinese. Is that cultural decimation? I Doubt it.

86

Of course. That tainted milk was a huge scandal that was on the front page of just about every newspaper or magazine at the time, including Global Times and China Daily.

ETA: the very first line of that article even says that it was reported by the government’s own media outlet:

Two businessmen have been executed in China over last year’s melamine-tainted milk scandal, in which at least six children died, the Xinhua news agency reported on Tuesday.

87

The thing that makes me doubt the people who talk about how it’s going to be China’s century is this- who is China most afraid of?

Their own people.

I can’t think of a lot of regions that have spent fifty years in martial law or semi martial law because people are just that unhappy about the situation. Generally, needing to keep an entire region at gunpoint is a good sign that you are doing something that is really pissing people off.

A few temples were preserved and many have been rebuilt (complete with informant-monks). I was surprised by how strong and vibrant Tibetan culture is (although the white-tile and karaoke of Chinese monoculture architecture are swiftly taking over some towns.) But why did they leaf through my books looking for forbidden pictures of the Dalai Lama? Why is the flag and national anthem banned? Why is movement so heavily controlled? How does China expect respect when they are afraid of a song?

I am not some knee jerk free-Tibeter. I am pretty well versed with the problems that Tibetan society had before “liberation” and admit it has developed a lot under Chinese rule. And I don’t think there is any way for Tibet to achieve political independence as long as the Chinese government remains in its current form- nor do I think being an independent country is necessarily the best outcome. I do recognize Tibet’s strategic importance, though the historic claim is pretty dubious. Anyway, most Tibetans aren’t really asking for that much- they want a say on what goes on in their country and they want some of the basic freedoms that we take for granted. If I had my way, all people in China would get that. But since the people in Tibet seem a lot more interested in their freedom, it’s hard not to root for them. Authoritarian states suck, but they suck worse when they aren’t even your own.

88

The Chinese are in a tizzy with the US, and today’s New York Times mentioned a tiff with Europe. The Chinese are annoyed with everyone.

89

I was surprised by how strong and vibrant Tibetan culture is

Once I went there and saw that Tibet wasn’t the huge gulag everyone made it out to be, I started to question what else the “Free Tibet” crowd might be exaggerating or covering up. Not surpringly, I found a few interesting things that didn’t match up with the Students for a Free Tibet propaganda.

*But why did they leaf through my books looking for forbidden pictures of the Dalai Lama? *

You got me on that one, especially since pictures of the Dalai Lama are often printed in newspapers in other parts of China. There was one of him in my local paper during the 2008 riots. The picture of he and Mao and the Panchen Lama together is often reproduced and there are pictures of him on Tibet.cn

*Why is the flag and national anthem banned? *

Because they’re nationalist symbols that start riots. Why doesn’t Germany allow the swastika to be shown? They just all have too much potential to piss people off. Also, if the Dalai Lama and his camp aren’t seeking independence, why do they need a flag and national anthem in the first place?

*Why is movement so heavily controlled? *

To stop people from getting in touch with Tibetan exile groups that smuggle weapons in or with underground domestic groups, both in Tibet and in other Tibetan areas, that do the same, as seen during the riots in 2008:

How does China expect respect when they are afraid of a song?

I’m sure it doesn’t matter to them…at least partly because they’re probably used to people lying about the situation already. Cultural decimation? Please. Tibetan culture hasn’t gone anywhere and probably never will go anywhere.

90

I spent 6+ months altogether backpacking in Tibet during the late 1980’s. I have personal experiences and strong views but please excuse me as I don’t feel comfortable sharing. Read into that what you will.

91

That, my friends, says it all.

One billion people are so scared and controlled that they willingly self-censor their own lives. The only reason I wrote anything resembling my views is that I am out of the country. Even then I gave a very diplomatic version of my beliefs and experiences…and I am still worried in the back of my mind that even the small bit I did write may have consequences. Five months from now I will return home, and I will share some things that will make your jaw drop. I can’t do that right now. I’m not free.

Freedom is not a luxury. It is an essential part of living a full life. Without it, there will always be parts of yourself that you have to suppress, deny, or purposefully forget.

There is no excuse for denying freedom- especially not money. Those that do deny it to their people have no moral high ground and should be called out for the things they are doing- once again, even if they are making money. This is not cultural imperialism. Freedom is an absolute good, appropriate for everyone. Cheers to Google for saying this truth out loud, while the rest of the world is too entranced by dollar signs (well, Yuan signs) to say what they know in their hearts.

(FWIW, you can’t look up the word “freedom” on Google in China- it’ll crash your Internet access for a good 15 minutes if you try.)

92

my google experience is normal. ‘freedom’ did not crash my pda and the wiki entry was number 3. Anyone else in china have this problem? I’m curious to know…

93

I just tried “freedom” on google.cn and had no trouble. But when I tried it on google.com, it went to webpage not found.

94

That is odd. Same experience as wolverine. Google.com had “free speech” but “freedom” was webpage not found.

95

That never happened to me before when searching in either Chinese, pinyin, or English…

96

even seven, would I be correct in assuming that you don’t read Chinese? Because if you do you’ll be able to find many a thread on Tianya or elsewhere where people don’t bother to censor themselves at all. In fact, even yesterday on the Global Times messageboard I saw plenty of threads wherein people badmouthed the Party and government without restraint. Even in real-life conversation I don’t know anyone who would lower their voice when talking politics. Self-censorship…it just…in my experience it doesn’t happen all that often.

97

IMHO, it’s hard to generalize about the self censorship across the whole country. There is no one monolithic China. You have a very real and valid snapshot of “your” China at this point in time. But it’s not all of China, and without any context of the starting base and the amount of progress.

First, most Chinese have a good read on what they can rant about and what is over the line.

Second, wealthier areas like the eastern seaboard and tier 1 and tier 2 cities are a lot more modern, wealthy, free, follow the rule of law, etc.

Third, Chongqing is going through a major anti-corruption campaign and what happened there appears so completely over the top. For those of you playing at home, the “Provincial level Municipality of Chongqing” was run like a private fiefdom by the party and police leaders. The trials and public executions are front page fodder and the blogsphere is simply outraged.

You’ll find that 4th tier cites like where you live in the interior province of Sichuan is significantly better and “freer” than it used to be. And is making real progress. You can argue about the pace but Mao on a pogo stick you don’t know what those places were like 25 years ago. One factor that is often overlooked is that for the first time in Chinese history, peasants and everyone else now have the freedom to leave the land and be part of that 2 or 300 million floating labor force. No bones about it, the migrants have a tough if not horrible life, but their labor is providing wealth accumulation in the countryside. And with that wealth accumulation is money for better education, upward mobility, lawyers, petitioning the federal government, etc. This is a revolutionary change unprecidented in Chinese history.

Finally, on the subject of self censorship. The MNC I work for has a very strong and real commitment to personal freedom, free speech, human rights, etc. At the same time, it would be irresponsible for me to publicly throw down in China, especially if it violates local law (despite how I may or may not feel about the validity of such laws). Frankly, I follow that general guideline in the US as well.

98

…So what are your proposals on dealing with the mass refugees flooding through the border when the North Korea regime collapses as the result? How about, what if before that, it decides to shell Seoul to rubble with nothing to lose? China isn’t the only one giving aids to NK, you know. What happens when a state with nuclear weapon become destabilised? I’m sure South Korea will be fine with this.

China (PRC) has used the veto six times in its history. None is related to Iran. The irony that it’s threatening the Iran sanction veto** in retaliation to** the Taiwan arms sale, is not lost on you I hope.
Military equipment, indeed.

99

China doesn’t have to use its veto when it makes clear that it won’t support another sanctions resolution in the first place. If the US, UK, and France went ahead and offered the resolution anyway, with Russia either voting against or abstaining and China voting against, then it would provide huge political cover for Ahmadinejad in his “everything is really a Western plot” narrative.

China wasn’t going to back another sanctions resolution anyway (given that it’s been on-ice for the past year), so them pointing to Taiwan as an excuse is just that - an excuse.