The China Thread

Stemming from another thread in IMHO, I’ve resolved to satiate my curiousity about the PRC through the medium of the Straight Dope. So, here comes a torrent of questions, for people to answer at their own leisure, in their own manner. Just inform me about these subjects, or answer the questions. Other questions from other posters is welcomed. And now:

-Discussion of dissidents, what’s it like?

-How frequent are public executions? Have any of you Chinese Dopers ever witnessed them?

-How restrictive is internet access?

-How free is travel is Xinjiang?

-Is Tiannanmen Square a taboo subject?

-What will people think if you consider Taiwan independent?

-How are the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward viewed by the general populace? How are they taught in school?

-What’s the latest on the Chinese government investigating claims of a UFO landing site in some part of rural China?

-How pervasive is government spying?

-How much relative freedoms do the people enjoy?

-What’s the ‘on the streets’ opinion of the US?

-What’s the general consensus about the war in Iraq?

Well, much thanks to those who answer. I’m looking forward to the responses! :slight_smile:

Although my opinions aren’t that well-informed having only spent a few months in mainland China, it’ll at least save your thread from death…

-Discussion of dissidents, what’s it like?

I don’t know, but I would suggest not being too political, at least not right off.

-How frequent are public executions? Have any of you Chinese Dopers ever witnessed them?

??? I actually don’t know if executions are “public” or not, if they are I don’t think it’s like they’re held in the town square or anything.

-How restrictive is internet access?

Can’t get CNN, Yahoo and some of the bigger personal website providers. There are probably others. Most of your favorites should still be available.

-How free is travel is Xinjiang?

For you? I imagine you’re fine if you go through the standard procedures with the authorities. With the unfair crackdown in Uyghers in going after a terrorist minority, though, it may not be so easy for the locals.

-Is Tiannanmen Square a taboo subject?
Not sure. Just think about it this way: if some Chinese guy comes over and just wants to talk about all the lowest points in American history, how are you going to take that? Remember that things do sometimes go right in China, they just don’t make the news. If you get political you better be prepared to hear some things about the US you might not like.

-What will people think if you consider Taiwan independent?

That would be significant faux pas, so keep your mouth shut unless you know someone really well. It’s not like it going to jail or anything, but most people aren’t going to like the sentiment. You don’t have to pretend it’s part of the mainland, just be diplomatic and avoid the subject.

-How are the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward viewed by the general populace? How are they taught in school?

I imagine they’re glossed over in school, (I do have a big problem with Chinese education) but people who lived through them seem to have a deep sense of regret, though I don’t typically push them on the subject.

-What’s the latest on the Chinese government investigating claims of a UFO landing site in some part of rural China?

I know nothing about this.

-How pervasive is government spying?

Not being in intelligence circles I couldn’t say, but I imagine for people who aren’t doing anything wrong there shouldn’t be a big problem.

-How much relative freedoms do the people enjoy?

Although I suppose I only have a relatively shallow view, I would say plenty in their daily lives. They don’t hold individiual freedoms as the bottom line like in the US, but day to day everyone pretty much goes about their business. It’s not a total police state.

-What’s the ‘on the streets’ opinion of the US?

I would bet it’s changed with the war on Iraq, and of course there’s a spectrum of opinion, but in general I’d say it’s pretty good.

-What’s the general consensus about the war in Iraq?

This I only know about in Hong Kong. Opinion is against it in a big way, and a lot of people aren’t very informed about it, they see it only as “Bush is killing children for oil.”

I just realized I said “I imagine” way too much in that post, please forgive me for being repetitive.

Okay, this is my take. I’ve spent about 8 of the last 20 years living in Mainland China (as well as another 7 in HK and Taiwan), first came here in 1985, have a published guidebook on SW China, am married to a Shanghaiese, and Shanghai is my home.

-Discussion of dissidents, what’s it like?
Few dissidents are known in this country.

-How frequent are public executions? Have any of you Chinese Dopers ever witnessed them?
Nope never had. Although on ancedotal story circa 1986 is that in Ma’erKang (Barkam) in Northern Sichuan, the charge d’affairs of the US consulate in Chengdu pulled into the town square minutes after an execution when the body was still there

-How restrictive is internet access?
barely. Of course, I haven’t tried to access anti-china sites. You can get at least some Taiwan government sites. None of the wire service sites, Bloomberg, etc are banned. I’ve heard some are but 2 seconds ago I pulled up the cnn webpage. I’ve heard that porn is widely available but profess no personal knowledge.

-How free is travel is Xinjiang?
How free is travel in China? Actually, I’m not sure. I used to be when I first came here there were about 200 places you could go without a permit. Now almost all places are open to westerners. Tibet you may or may not need a permit for, but practically speaking it is a formality. For Xinjiang, I have not heard that there are any restrictions.

I myself in the 1980’s went many a place closed to foreigners, especially in Tibet, the Tibetan border areas. I’ve been kicked out of more places at that time than I can remember, but say somewhere around 20. I was never formally arrested, although once I had a police escort for two days back to the provincial capital of Chengdu, and then questioned for an afternoon before being cut loose.

-Is Tiannanmen Square a taboo subject?
Depends on who you talk to. Occaisionally meet people who were protesting on the square and they may talk about it a little bit.

-What will people think if you consider Taiwan independent?
they will think you have a mental disease. I mean how could any rational person think Taiwan is independant? Well, that’s the view. Sure, you can discuss it although I wouldn’t do so in a classroom or on TV. The ignorance on Taiwan is huge. The Taiwanese now have pretty good first hand knowledge of China, which is a marked contrast to 20 years ago. The Chinese though are broadly speaking not allowed to visit Taiwan. I have said for years the best thing the Taiwanese could do to publicize their cause is to allow open tourism to Taiwan. No one has listened to me yet. I feel I have a pretty unique view since I’ve lived in both countries for many years.

-How are the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward viewed by the general populace? How are they taught in school?
Viewed as stupid mistakes. That’s a no shitter. Not sure how it is tought in school. Old PLA revolutionaries that toe the party line will say so. The big criticism that you will hear even from party faithful is that Mao’s biggest mistake was encouraging the population to get out of control

-What’s the latest on the Chinese government investigating claims of a UFO landing site in some part of rural China?
never heard of this one.

-How pervasive is government spying?
The neighborhood watch system has largely broken down. Still pervasive in the 1980’s and somewhat through the 90’s. People no longer have cradle to the grave socialist system. you buy your own house, change jobs, move, create new businesses, etc. While still there to a certain extent, big brother can’t watch everything.

-How much relative freedoms do the people enjoy?
The faustian bargain is you can do whatever you want as long as you let the government run the big show. In turn, the government largely leaves the individual alone as long as you don’t rock the boat. Of course, the more money you have the freer you are, but that could be true in the US as well. You do not ask the government for permission to change schools, change jobs, move, travel, and only a few hoops to get permission to leave the country.

-What’s the ‘on the streets’ opinion of the US?
By and large they like Americans. Not sure if they like our country, but on a personal basis the Chinese generally a positively pre-disposed to Americans. Probably more so than to any other country.

-What’s the general consensus about the war in Iraq? Started out thinking that Saddamn was a bad guy that should be taken out, to a great big ol What the Fuck? The US really fucked up it’s international relations in China over Iraq, and it was a venture that was initially largely supported. Let me rephrase that. The Chinese man in the street that I know was intially largely supportive and then became very negative on the actions and percieves the US as being giant hypocrites. I don’t think it has really hurt Sino-US relations to a large degree as that is an on-going love hate relationship. We’ll see how N. Korea is handled behind the doors.

When I went on a school trip to Xinjiang and Qinghai I think the people in charge had to register with the local police when we stayed somewhere, but I didn’t pay much attention since it wasn’t my problem. What exactly does that entail? Do individuals have to do it or what?

As far Chinese opinion of Americans, while it’s generally good, just keep in mind that things will temporarily change big-time during crises like the spy plane fiasco or the Belgrade embassy bombing. But in general I found people fairly stereotype-free. Oh, except for assuming that I must be rich, which to them I of course am.

I don’t know if you’re asking about all this political stuff because it’s all one usually hears about China or because you really want to get into it over there, but again I would advise you to be diplomatic, keep your opinions to yourself until you know some people. You’re not going to change anyone’s minds about the big ones. Some of the ideas the government has pushed are just bullshit (I got really angry when I found my girlfriend told me what her textbook said about sex, for instance. There might be legitimate reasons not to put out, but those ain’t them.) but some of them are just a matter of point of view, which isn’t an easy thing to change.

I have some questions to add.

  1. What happens when you try to access a restricted website? What does it actually say on the screen?

  2. Do most places take American credit cards, like Visa?

  3. Was it difficult to learn their currency?

  4. What are some of the basic things you wished you knew before you went?

Vampire- My interest in the political climate was just the first one I articulated. I have more questions. :slight_smile:

So, what did the textbook say about sex?

What does maotai taste like, and what is its potency comparable to?

What are Chinese cigarettes like?

How safe are Chinese contraceptives?

Do most people really commute by bike?

  1. What happens when you try to access a restricted website? What does it actually say on the screen?I can’t think of a blocked website to check. CNN and NYTimes are good to go. I seem to remember a blank screen.

  2. Do most places take American credit cards, like Visa?
    More and more, but still not many places. The big malls, department stores, restaurants and hotels in the main cities do.

  3. Was it difficult to learn their currency?
    no. especially the new bills are pretty easy with the numbers printed in roman numerals

  4. What are some of the basic things you wished you knew before you went?can’t really help with this. I already spoke Chinese, had lots of Chinese friends, knew a reasonable amount about the country and culture. Recent history is always good though so you understand where China is today, how far it has come in the last 25 years, and be able to put some context around what you see.

YMMV,

What does maotai taste like, and what is its potency comparable to?Nasty nasty nasty stuff. I remember reading about Nixon and Mao toasting with Maotai and how good it is. First time I had it in 1986 in Dazu, Sichuan, was a nasty shock. Nasty grain alcohol with an evil taste.

What are Chinese cigarettes like?
not a smoker. You can get priated American cigs, or stuff made with Chinese tobacco. My smoker buddies by and large smoke imported. My favorite are “Long Life” cigs from Taiwan.

How safe are Chinese contraceptives?
As in? Condoms work fine. 15-20 years ago when it was still largely a state economy, it was hard to buy condoms. They were given out by your work unit/commune. They came in 4 sizes: Large, Medium, Small and Extra Small (texiao - I kid you not about the extra small).

Do most people really commute by bike?
Probably. Different from city to city. In places like Shanghai, it’s a combination of bus, bike, subway, taxi, private car.

Well, apparently it doesn’t tell you what it is, it just tells you that if you’re a girl and you do whatever it is you’ll be “harmed in mind, body and spirit” or something like that. Have you ever heard the old story about the Cultural Revolution era couple who asked a doctor why they couldn’t get pregnant and he had to explain that sharing a bed wouldn’t do it? It could still happen today with the right couple.

Chinese beer is so cheap (at least in stores) that I suggest you stick to that for getting drunk and avoid their hard stuff, which is nightmarish. My worst hangovers ever came from that stuff.

What do I wish I had known?.. I wish my Chinese had been perfect, but you can’t have everything. Do you speak/read Chinese? If not you better start cramming or things are going to be tough.

I guess I wish I had been prepared for people jacking up prices on me and known not to take it too personally. Often you can come to a price that’s very good for you while they’ve still made a relative killing, and everyone’s happy. You ARE rich compared to them, really. Which is why…

Your Chinese friends will try to pay for your meals all the time. Let them do it once or twice at a cheap place to make them feel better, but at real restaurants you should do it unless your friends are known to be fabulously wealthy. You can often feed four people for the cost of a lunch in the US, but the cost isn’t quite so trivial to them.

Oh, very often if Chinese girls seem to be flirting with you they’re just friendly or curious, even if they ask you things like “do you have a girlfriend?” or tell you you’re handsome.

Be seriously careful about flashing money around or openly displaying expensive consumer goods. I know a lot of people who had their apartments broken into. And if you buy a bike, buy a junker. When I needed to carry a (relatively) large amount of cash, I generally concealed most of it in other parts of my wallet. This also lets you pull the old “but I only have 100” trick when haggling. Money belts are for tourists and wimps in my opinion.

-How restrictive is internet access?

Mainly political sites.

Some examples:
http://www.anticommunism.org/
http://www.amnesty-usa.org/

http://www.voa.gov ← Voice of America

Some non-political: altavista, angelfire, blogspot, geocities, tripod.

For more examples: Sites Blocked in China - Highlights

-What are Chinese cigarettes like?

They are cheap. Some of the cheapest are under 5 RMB (about US$0.5). Local Chinese people prefer the chinese brands (ex: Zhong Hua, Double Happiness) over the foreign brands.

Some more questions.

  1. Have you found the Chinese to be(very) patient with people who are trying to get used to their language? I’ve been trying to pick it up on my own, but it is quite difficult, especialy since I have few around me who can help with the tones.

  2. Do they have Cuban cigars? I know that’s a silly question, but a friend of mine asked me(not that I’d try to bring any back…he was just intrigued that I might get to try some).

Gaaah, two guys with names ending in “loth” asking about China is getting goddam confusing. The first guy, if some of my answers seemed odd it’s because I thought you were the person above. I can’t even remember who’s going and who isn’t or if both are going or what.

  1. Some aren’t, most are. In general I’d say they are MUCH more patient than Americans are about foreigners’ English. However, among the group I studied with I was probably in the upper third or quarter language-wise, I imagine the two or three people who spoke minimal or gratingly awful Chinese ran into a lot more irritated people and embarrassing situations. I’m going to level with you, though: I hope you’re going on a program or something and will have some kind of support system, because even if you’re naturally good with the language the short amount of time you have to prepare means you can expect difficulties, at least until you get things figured out.

  2. I would tend to really really doubt it.

Oh, I’d suggest you learn something about menus first so you don’t have to point-n-pray like some people. Remember, if they look at you funny and say “are you sure?” you’re probably better off picking something else.

There I go with the “imagine” thing again.
One more thing: have fun but keep it under control. Sometimes the worst thing about China is living in the shadow of foreigners who act like complete dipshits. Don’t be one.

well said.

Cuban cigars are widely available in big cities. Expect to pay global prices though.

I won’t be going for five years, or thereabouts. I don’t know any Mandarin. What do I do to prepare myself?

Don’t worry about it. You’ll pick it up as you go. Chinese people know a bit of English, and they’ll always be willing to help you out. In fact, they’re always surprised if a foreigner can speak Chinese, even if it’s only a few phrases.

However, I do suggest learning pinyin. Makes learning new words a lot easier.

Just out of curiousity, why are you going to China?

I can’t give you any general information, but I can recount something that happened to me.

In '95 I was in Zhongdian, which is on the Tibetan plateau, and is ethnically Tibetan, but is just inside the border of Yunnan province. I was having lunch in a café when I heard a commotion outside. I went out into the street and saw soldiers running about, and police cars with sirens on driving down the street, with TV cameras filming the cavalcade. The most important-looking policeman saw our western faces, and came over, grinning and excitedly telling us (via the translation services of our waitress) that there was an execution about to happen, and would we like to come and watch? I presume that the addition of some westerners would have added to the exoticism of the event, and perhaps have conferred some kudos on him. I declined the offer, and mutely watched the cavalcade.

The centrepiece was an open-bed truck, on the back of which stood five Tibetan men in prison uniform, each restrained by two soldiers. They were facing outwards, hands cuffed behind their backs, and each man had a card hanging around his neck, with Chinese characters on it. I was told that these cards had the details of the men’s crimes on them. After the vehicles had passed, we went back into the café, and the mood was dark. Our waitress shook her head vehemently and said “very bad. Very bad.”

While the truck was passing us, I had inadvertantly locked eyes with one of the men, during his last hour on earth. It’s an image that has haunted me for many years.

I guess it just depends on your attitude. I personally hate watching people really struggle with my language when it’s their country. However, things might change a bit in five years, some of the students out there are working really hard. Five years, no Mandarin, do you (switching who I’m talking to now) happen to be going for the Olympics? In that case, my advice to someone who’s staying for a while is void, you don’t need to spend the amount of time it takes most people to even get a decent base of Mandarin on what will presumably be a relatively short tourist trip. Maybe learn your numbers and how to say “thanks” and “sorry.”

Xiao Zhongdian is about 30 km away on the route to Kunming. at least in 1985 it was still part of the “laogai” or reform through labor prison camp system. Just stopped there on the bus for a few minutes, but my companion and I both knew within a few seconds that something was up. We put our heads down and pulled hats low to try be as inconspicuous as possible on the bus. Pulled out about 5 minutes later, and then in either Dali or lijiang, I asked the locals what that place was and they explained. Later on a second trip to Zhongdian in 1986 the monks told me that there were still monks held as prisoners in Xiao Zhong dian from IIRC 1956.