The Christian Right and Democracy

It seems to me you could make a very strong argument that fundamentalist Christian Right wingers (anti abortionists and their ilk) are anti democratic, in a most unpatriotic sort of way.

What I mean is, they were all about majority over morality as long as they were in the majority. The enslavement of blacks is a good example. The morality of it wasn’t their issue, so long as they were in the majority it was all just good democracy in action. Ditto on segregation, again their fall back was democratic majority, morality be damned.

But now that they aren’t in the majority, it’s all about the morality.

Abortion is a perfect example, it seems to me. Times have changed and the abortion laws were changed by democratically elected majorities and/or their appointees.

I find it odd that the fundamentalists are such red, white and blue patriots but can’t support their democracy when it doesn’t go their way. Isn’t the core of patriotism standing by the right of the majority to decide what’s best, regardless of whether it agrees with your personal view?

I’m not saying they have to like it, or that they can’t rally people to make the changes they like to see. But how can they call themselves patriots when they can’t accept the outcome unless it goes their way?

Christian fundamentalism didn’t really exist in the United States as a movement until about 50 years after slavery was abolished. There were evangelical and revivalist groups before the Civil War, so they might count as “fundamentalists”, depending on how you define the term, but most of them were abolitionist.

I think your stance that abortion is generally accepted is somewhat of a stretch

Here’s a site that references a multitude of related polls

Polls regarding abortion

Seems to me the populace is evenly split, at best. The appointed judges ruled on a narrow margin as well.

An equally strong argument can be made that various groups on the left are just as anti-democratic. Some people (of all political stripes) just don’t like losing. If they are in the majority, democracy’s fine. If they are in the minority, they whine. That’s just the way some people are.

My question is why so many fundamentalists are so non-christian in their “Christianity”

Last I heard, the some significant percentage of Christians expect and hope for the Kingdom of God to be established on earth, and soon. Being in favor of uprooting the current government and replacing it with an autocratic monarchy strikes me as pretty anti-democratic and unpatriotic, objectively speaking.

It is exceedingly unfair and inaccurate to lump modern 20th century fundamentalist with slave owners of the 19th century. American fundamentalism as we know it today was a product of late 19th and early 20th century modern thoughts. In particular, a new wave of Christian theologians who suggested that Christ wasn’t really divine, there was no physical resurrection, etc., etc. So far as segregation in the South went it wasn’t fundamentalist alone that supported it. Also, I would argue that it wasn’t the democratic majority that ended segregation, it was the courts.

Isn’t it odd that homosexuals and the friends of homosexuals can’t support their democracy when it doesn’t go their way? I’m thinking of Proposition 8 in California from November of 2008. Homosexuals say that they’re decent people who deserve the same rights as everyone else. Well, hey, the majority has spoken so they should just shut up and live with what the democratic process has given them.

Yeah, that’s a really silly argument.

Odesio

It is a great argument, and I hope your comment was tongue in cheek.

The nation’s government was never founded on majority rule, but rather on minority rights, so that people would not be stripped of their rights based on the whim of the voting populace.

Unfortunately, the rather unusual constitutional structure of California undermines that most vital principle.

Let me tweak that slightly, Qadgop: the country was founded on self-government by majority vote – but the Founding Fathers were quite well aware that democracy easily degenerates into mobocracy and ‘the tyranny of the majority’. So a second theme, of proection for individual rights, was introduced – it taking a substantial and widespread supermajority to revise this (by constitutional amendment, which requires supermajorities in both houses of Congress plus majority support in 75% of the states). The courts are empowered to fail to enforce any statute that falls afoul of those protected rights.

The Christian Right, except for the Dominionists/Christian Reconstructionists, is solicitous of the democratic process – but believe that God’s Will trumps personal freedom, so laws should enforce the divine intent. (Usually, that is.) That which is considered a sin in Conservative Christian thought is not protected by the constitutional rights mandate.

Christian Reconstructionism, and Dominionism. They think this “new world order” will be according to their rules, and they will be calling all the shots. You can lump in the “end timers” too. Each group thinks they will be, giving the orders.

I assume you don’t mean Roe v. Wade here.

Nor this law, nor these, or this, or this, when you speak of laws changed by elected representatives.

Regards,
Shodan

Everybody wants democracy as they personally define it, and screw everyone else. What makes it actual democracy is the endless process of compromise in which nobody gets everything they want, but can live with the result.

I don’t see any big insights, here.

Leaving aside the point Captain Amazing made about fundamentalism not existing in the times of slavery, it’s easy to demonstrate that most conservative Christians were strongly opposed to slavery when it existed in America. The Catholic position on slavery in America was given by Pope Paul III in his encyclical Sublimus Dei and his stance was clear:

While positions on the issue from Protestants didn’t arrive until later, most were equally firm. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist Church, was an extremely aggressive opponent of slavery. Just read his pamphlet Thoughts Upon Slavery:

Similarly we can look at the Presbyterian Church and the position they took on slavery in 1815, which declared slavery to be “inconsistent with the Gospel of Jesus Christ”. Nor would it be hard to find similar statements from Puritans, Baptists, Quakers, etc…

It is true and highly unfortunate that within some of the Protestant churches, there were groups of southern slave-owners who chose to break away from the national churches and form their own separate, southern churches that would look aside rather than taking a stance on slavery. However, they represented only a small portion of American Christianity in total. There simply is no basis for what you say about the Christian right and slavery.

Yeah. Those unpatriotic Christians… they should take their example from how the left reacted to the presidential election of 2000. It was an election decided by a democratic process and/or appointed officials of elected office holders.

Seems to me that if everyone was A-OK with anything their country could possibly do as long as it was the will of the majority, there wouldn’t be much progress. A certain amount of (hopefully legal and peaceful) dissent is necessary for real change, and is, IMO, an important aspect of patriotism.

I would love to see how today’s right would have handled that, if instead of their guy ending up being president, it was, say, Barack Obama.

These people can’t handle freaking health care reform without completely losing their goddamn minds.

Really? I don’t see that at all. As Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. said:

That seems to be pretty much the opposite position, that democratic decisions should be obeyed as long as they are within the bounds of the moral law, but not when they transgress the moral law.

No, I think the core of patriotism is loving one’s country, and the more you love your country, the less you’re willing to tolerate mistakes made just because they’re made by your country. If you love someone or something, you want it to become better. A parent who truly loves their kid will discipline the kid when he misbehaves. A parent who’s indifferent to the kid may not bother. Similarly a patriot will discipline the country when the country misbehaves. (Or if the patriot can’t discipline the country single-handedly, they’ll at least do the best they can.)

Yeah, it really sucked how all the blue states seceded over that.

The Christian response to a woman with an unwanted pregnancy is to love and support the woman and her child before considering any other thing. That really doesn’t describe our legal situation. The laws of men are not supposed to have precedence to the dedicated follower of Christ, but the social cost of disobedience is similarly not supposed to have precedence over the choice to do God’s will, rather than obey Man’s laws. None of these are democratic in their foundation. When you decide to love God and Country, you have to be responsible for both of those choices, to both of those masters, and you will fail.

Accepting your personal responsibilities doesn’t mean you will live in a comfortable home, with good food, and an SUV. It means you will give up all those things, rather than fail to follow the will of God, and accept the civil consequences if you disobey the Law of the Land, without harming those who choose differently. Love, always choose love. Of course, you won’t win many elections.

Tris

You mean, “I object to the highly partisan decisions made, but I agreed to abide by the rule of law, so in the face of a final court decision, I’ll register my discontent with it but abide by it,” then yes, they should take an exmple from the Left. :stuck_out_tongue: