so…does anyone who went through the temple initiation before 1980 remember that scene of accusing chrsitian pastors of doing the work of the devil?
Or is it that you are not allowed to talk about it?
Also, I’ve been told that LDS is the one and only true church, that all other churche shave a teeny tiny bit of error in them.
So…whats the errors?
Are they provable?
thank you.
With that, I agree.
With that, I disagree. We must examine each of these claims on their own merits. Now, I agree that we shouldn’t dismiss a supernatural claim merely because it sounds strange. However, as a former skeptic, I believe there is ample reason to accept the miraculous claims of the Bible (including, and especially, the Resurrection). I don’t believe that there’s anywhere near the same amount of reason to believe the LDS claims.
It’s testable because Smith claimed to have transcribed characters from them that were part of various human languages (Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic, according to Joseph Smith-History 1:64 in the Pearl of Great Price) and to have accurately translated them. If those characters should turn out not to be part of those languages, or if they are part of those languages but are not accurately translated, or if the information revealed from the translation proves to have no historical bearing, then either:
–the tablets existed, but Smith neither transcribed nor translated them properly;
–the tablets existed, and were transcribed and translated properly, but the information on them was false; or
–the tablets never existed in the first place and Smith made the whole thing up.
That’s how it is testable. If what was allegedly on the tablets makes claims about our world, we can test those claims, and by proxy, test the accuracy of the tablets or decide that they never existed.
But you see, PLD, the tablets aren’t available anymore. Thefore, you can’t compare them to anything.
:::sigh:::
It appears that you are being argumentative for it’s own sake. Either that or I am simply not explaining myself correctly. Let me try to break it down:
Joseph Smith was allegedly in possession of golden plates whose location was divinely revealed to him.
These plates allegedly contained written material.
That written material was later translated by Smith, sometimes directly from the plates, sometimes using the seer stones without the plates and with his face stuck in a hat.
The translation of the material from the plates was published as the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon makes claims about the physical world, including tales of ancient peoples and Jesus Christ which take place in North America, some of it in what we now know as New York State.
If the claims that the Book of Mormon makes about the physical world are false, then that portion of the Book of Mormon is false.
If that portion of the Book of Mormon is false, then either the material from the plates was mistranslated, it was translated correctly but was false to begin with, or the material was simply made up.
You seem to be hung up on where the plates are now, while I am contending that where the plates are or are not is irrelevant. Some of the claims made by the BoM, and by implication by the plates, are testable. There is a set of possible results of that testability which would tend to indicate, inferentially, that the plates never actually existed.
Monty,
I think we all understand that the plates themselves are supposed to no longer be here on Earth.
But the data transcribed from them by the Prophet is.
If this data agrees with what we know about the languages, then it makes a strong case that
If the data does not agree with what we know about the languages, it proves that one of the above things is NOT true.
This can be done, even though the plates themselves are no longer available to test.
FU Shakespeare
The church line is: The translation is available. The stuff it was translated from isn’t. The data from which translated is not available.
Why is that so hard for you to recognize? Honestly, you’re making stuff up to be argumentative.
Please point out exactly what I have “made up.” Also, please tell me whether the “church line” is that the available translation accurately represents the content of the original data.
still no answers.
Yeah, tell me about it, vanilla. My question about Kolob has gone unanswered as well.
I’ll bite, what is Kolob?
The other thing I do not understand is why the ceremonies are not open to the public? Why not? If they are really groovy, wouldn’t that be the best advertisement to convert?
Since things have deteriorated to a match between Monty and PLD, I hadn’t seen much point in continuing, but I’ll bite in the interests of disseminating information.
Kolob is a name for where God lives.
There ya go. I don’t know that I think ‘planet’ is a good term for it, nor perhaps ‘star.’ I don’t really think you could say it’s on this plane of existence, so to speak–you couldn’t see it with a telescope or get there in a starship. So, ‘place’ will have to do.
Ambrose, on the first page I linked to an old thread about the temple. You may find it informative. The temple is not open to the public (or even to many Mormons) because what goes on there is sacred and not for the public. I’d advise you to read the thread first, and then if you still have questions and aren’t templed-out, I’ll try to help you.
Vanilla:
I’ve never seen it, but I know of the video you are talking about, and the temple endowment changes were made in 1990. I don’t remember this ever being talked about in church. Here is a link from an ex-mormon site: Temple Endowment Ceremony Changes
I assume the errors would be other Christian theologies deviating from the core beliefs (i.e. the Articles of Faith, the divine origin of the Book of Mormon, polygamy, etc) that Mormons adhere to. Claims based on faith are by definition unprovable (according to standards of logic); therefore neither side can prove or disprove each other’s beliefs.
Unlike some Christian sects, Mormons generally don’t have internet sites debunking other sects, or hand our literature at their places of worship, and concede that other’s beliefs are equally Christian in that they contain some inherant truths, like worshiping Jesus.
Darwin’s Finch:
According to a facsimile included in the first publication of the Book of Abraham, Kolob is God’s home planet and that is where the sun derives it’s light.
My first thought was that their beliefs impressed me as lying somewhere between christianity and scientology on the goofiness continuum. Then I realized that the age of the religion was also between those other two. I’ll get back to you in another couple millenia. Damn, just realized orthodox jews invalidated the whole goofiness/chronology scale.
Seems like a heck of a successful business plan which has had significant material benefits for many of its adherents.
Whatever floats your boat. Would be nice, however, if you could see fit to keep it to yourselves.
The “available translation” as I know you already know is what’s called the Book of Mormon. It’s not a comparison of anything. It’s been a basic teaching of the LDS church from that church’s beginning that the Book of Mormon is an accurate translation of the tome Joseph Smith Jr was led to find.
<b>Are there any Mormon jackasses out there? Or is that entire religion made up of the nicest people you’d ever want to meet? </b>
One of my high school English teachers was a Mormon. She was the sneakiest, most conniving person I’ve ever met. My senior year of high school she spent most of her time trying to get another teacher fired because he wouldn’t put her son in as much as she thought he should at football games (he was the football coach). She went around calling other parents and starting some REALLy vile rumors about this man. (Not to mention she did a bunch of really lowdown stuff to me.)
That said, she’s the <i>only</i> Mormon I’ve ever known that I can say that about. The rest have been some of the nicest people I’ve ever met. Very giving, honest, upstanding people.
There are bad apples in every bushel, I don’t care what religion you’re discussing.
Behold! All things Kolob.
All the references say is that “Kolob is set night unto the throne of God.” This doesn’t necessarily mean it is where God lives, but only that it is near Him. Note that it is logical in the LDS theology for God to have a physical place to abide–we believe that God has a tangible body.
It is taught that the BoM has all the knowledge that God wants us to have in it.
I don’t have the quote handy, but I can get it.
So…if that were true, there are many core doctrines that aren’t in the BoM.
But thank you for your answers Rom.
The “one true church” is people from differing denominations who believe in and worship Jesus as God, who died for us and was resurrected.
No denomination is arrogant enough to claim all the truth-and only the truth.
Theres nothing wrong or in error with my Christianity.
So no chrisitian, if they think about it, to convert.
that would be “has no reason to convert”.
Here is the link:
Please read!