The Colorado no gay (and now transgender) cake questions.

I’m hearing that he would have made a cake for a gay wedding…but he reserved the right not to put on the top what he didnt want to. And now he’s suing because he was requested to make a cake for a transgender transition anniversary and he refused and i guess Colorado ruled against me. Questions:

If he makes the cake…it seems like he should have the right not to decorate it the way he’s being asked. I say that not because its right but because…man we will get into crazy degrees of accomodation otherwise… but i guess im wrong on that. A restaurant who says “We let blacks use our bathroom. Not our fault they’re out of toilet paper. Not our fault the food happened to take an hour.” wont get far.

I dont think he can hide behind his religion on transgenders given there is no mention of them in the bible. Well maybe he can but it lessens his argument.

Are transgenders protected by Colorado sexual identity accomodation laws? Wouldnt you need a gender identity law?

There are a lot of questions here, but this one I’m pretty sure I can answer. If someone claims that their religious beliefs are X, trying to argue theology with them by referencing a particular holy book is not a valid legal strategy.

It might lessen his argument in some other venue, but not in court.

While there are a couple of questions at the end, most of the OP is opinion, so this is best suited to IMHO.

General Questions Moderator

It appears so.

Thanks x-ray, that nails that one.

You are completely misunderstanding the argument. Whereas the Colorado Civil Rights Commission routinely finds that merchants have the right to not be forced to express themselves in ways they disagree with, this baker IS being forced to for no other reason than he is a Christian.

To your analogy it would be like bakeries being allowed to refuse service to whites but if a white-owned bakery refused the make a “Black Lives Matter. Kill Whitey” cake then they are fined for being “a member of the white slave-master oppressor race”

Jack Phillips was targeted again.

“On the same day the high court agreed to review the Masterpiece case, an attorney named Autumn Scardina called Phillips’ shop and asked him to create a cake celebrating a sex transition. The caller asked that the cake include a blue exterior and a pink interior, a reflection of Scardina’s transgender identity. Phillips declined to create the cake, given his religious conviction that sex is immutable, while offering to sell the caller other pre-made baked goods.
In the months that followed, the bakery received requests for cakes featuring marijuana use, sexually explicit messages, and Satanic symbols. One solicitation submitted by email asked the cake shop to create a three-tiered white cake depicting Satan licking a functional 9 inch dildo.”

The only reason for these requests is to drive Phillips out of business. CO Civil rights division is already siding against Phillips in these cases.

There are other bakers who will create these cakes, and others who were allowed to refuse to decorate cakes with anti-LGBT messages. Denying the same rights to Christians will not cause Christians to buckle and submit, and it certainly won’t win any hearts and minds.

The “decoration” for the transgender cake in the OP-Is that the one where it consisted of having the cake pink on the inside and blue frosting on the outside?

Is he? I imagine if he was a Christian but willing to make the cake, his religion would not be factor. Likewise, I’d bet a Muslim baker who balked, citing his faith, would also be dictated to.

This is an election year and we have an LGBT person running for congress. For good or bad, people get associated with others like them. Her answer on where she would be on this issue could well mean her election or not.

The word “frosting” was not used. From the lawsuit filed by the ADF on behalf of Phillips (pdf at link) the request is described as “…a cake designed with a blue exterior and pink interior, which the caller said would visually depict and celebrate a gender transition.” That description is apparently taken from the language used in the complaint Scardina filed against him with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission. The Commission used the same language in its preliminary finding.

I would find it simply unbelievable that a commercial specialty baker had never produced a cake with one color of batter but a different color of frosting. Such cakes would be so routine as to be unremarkable on that basis. By description given by Phillips I would interpret the request to be for a cake with two colors of batter used rather than one color batter and a different color of frosting.

Some bakeries do make checkerboard cakes and such using two batter colors. It is not clear if Jack Phillips has ever produced a cake with differing batter colors used.

You know, if I was ordering a wedding cake, for myself at least, I’d LIKE to know that the baker could refuse my order, for whatever kind of reason… That would let me know, if my order was refused, that I shouldn’t have come to that bakery in the first place.

If someone was legally obligated to make a cake that they didn’t want to, I’d be afraid of how it would be treated, or that they would deliberately do a half assed job.

I have a feeling this was either going to be a test case, or an attempt to try and get the dude put out of business, considering he’s refused to do LBGT-related cakes in the past.

That he’s a bigot is, I am sure, entirely beside the point.

What I’m guessing is the trans person made this huge deal of making sure the baker knew what the cake was all about knowing damn well it would cause a confrontation.

I’m sure they will get celebrated in the LGBT community.

I hope that’s not “the argument,” as it’s trivially proven false.

All you need is one non-Christian who has been forced to comply with the law. That proves that the person was not forced because they were a Christian.

What these Christians don’t seem to get by their religious argument is that there are religions that believe that Christians are bad people, and people could have a firm religious belief that they should not make a cake for a Christian wedding.

They whine about discrimination against Christians, but their arguments in this area could actually lead to legal discrimination against them, when there currently isn’t any.

First off, it’s perfectly legal and moral to try and drive a company out of business. This is also the purpose when all those same right wingers would boycott companies that did things they didn’t like.

Second, what you are describing doesn’t make sense. Either the cakes in question are cakes he’s allowed to not make, meaning they cost him nothing, or it’s his choice not to make them that would be driving him out of business.

You guys can continue to argue that its his Christianity that causes the problem, but basic logic (detailed in my previous post) shows its his choice to discriminate that created this situation. There are plenty of Christians who don’t discriminate, and they don’t get into this trouble.

You guys are making the same arguments that were used to say that it was okay to discriminate against black people. They didn’t work back then, and they don’t work now.

And, as a Christian myself, I am insulted by your attempts to link my religion with a requirement to discriminate. That is hatred, and my God teaches love to all, even to those who you believe are sinners.

He should be allowed to sell cakes to who he wants. If he doesn’t want to sell you a cake, why would you want to buy one from him?

If a business hung out a sign that said “No white guys from Nevada allowed”, I would not want to force the issue and give them my business. It just makes no sense.

Yes it’s very easy for members of the majority to hold such opinions as they are unlikely to every suffer the consequences of legal discrimination.

Our country already decided preventing public accommodations from discriminating is better for the society as a whole. We made sundown towns a thing of the past, there are many of us who do not want to see them return.

My opinion was the same when I lived as a minority in various countries for 12 years.

I was once kicked out of an internet cafe in Rotarua, New Zealand for being an American. I was told, “get the fu*k out of my shop and go find yourself some Iraqi prisoners to torture.”

I would have preferred that he just posted a sign “No Americans” rather than waiting till I was already in there.