We have that conditioning when it happens to us if it isn’t someone with whom we have a rapport (its usually more the “wanna fuck” pick up line), but we aren’t conditioned to think its a prank. Its usually more of a flight response.
^
Yeah, if a girl did that to me, I’d leave right away. Five seconds later I’m back fully naked.
And that, folks, is why these discussions are still necessary and institutions feel compelled to attempt to deal with it, including some attempts that end up as awkward-sounding policy guidelines.
One group of people may worry over the small chance that the other person may afterwards flake out and decide to cry rape or boil your bunny; or laugh at it. The other group has to worry about a significant rate of assaults and can’t afford to take it as a joke.
Not sure of the second part is addressed to me, but who’s advocating sex with non-reciprocating partners? (Unless you’re talking about Shades of Grey BDSM style sex, which I admit, can be pretty hot, even if the actual book is shit.)
You may not have to work for sex, but men do. Unless you happen to be an NBA superstar, you have to work to be the kind of man women want to have sex with. (And even NBA superstars have to work to become NBA superstars. So there’s that.)
Unless by “work” you mean chat and maybe offer to buy her a drink, you might wanna speak for yourself. Unless I’ve been incredibly lucky.
You have to admit that there’s a tension between on the one hand accepting that any particular guy’s sexual partners always reciprocate enough that he knows they are for sure consenting, and enough that we can say at this point in the thread “who’s advocating for sex with non-reciprocating partners?”, and on the other hand saying that those partners aren’t acting unambiguously.
[QUOTE=kayaker]
Unless by “work” you mean chat and maybe offer to buy her a drink, you might wanna speak for yourself. Unless I’ve been incredibly lucky.
[/QUOTE]
Pipe down, Abdul-Jabbar!
With the caveat that I haven’t read the whole thread, I think the law is kind of ridiculous, but more for the fact that it strikes me as posturing more than any effective solution. So now we have to unambiguously say yes. Great. Wonderful. Now who’s to say whether or not the person actually said yes? It’s still just hearsay. I think encouraging enthusiastic consent is perfectly fine from an educational standpoint – educating teenagers and young adults on what rape is – but basically useless from a legal perspective. It strikes me as writing a law to try and appease feminists (and I say that as a feminist) without any real sane, effective goal in mind. I mean, I appreciate the gesture and all, but to me it feels about as effective as #Kony2012 in the grand scheme of things.
I’m not sure about 50 Shades of Grey, not having read it, but characterizing real BDSM as non-reciprocating is kind of dangerous in itself. If the book portrays it as such (“break her down and humiliate her until she learns to like it”), then it’s portraying rape. If it just depicts her as someone who, even if a little squeamish at first, legitimately likes BDSM sex once she agrees to try it, then it’s just sex. Nothing non-reciprocating about it. (Unless that was your point?)
It’s not a law.
The OP didn’t make it clear. When I saw “the purpose of this policy” sounded like a law to me. The fact that it was a university link made me just think it was a link to the law department explaining the statute.
Even so, my point stands even as a “university campus policy” it has almost exactly the same problems. Even if the purpose is to “educate”, policy changes are a silly way to educate people.
I haven’t read it either, but my guess is he does everything exactly the way she wants it done, without ever asking her what she wants, and she enjoys every minute. It is, after all, a national best-seller.
Ah, right, it’s an erotic novel. I forgot about the option of “magically romantic sex pseudo-telepathy”. Which is kind of a grey area that doesn’t exist in real life, and it’s kind of hard to gauge if such a thing has unsavory implications (at least without reading it).
Oh, spare me that drivel! Let’s turn the tables. There is a woman, a wallflower, who hasn’t had any in a long time, just like your cake analogy, she is very very hungry. And you’re the cake. Would you:
-
Happily say “yes, take me please!”? In which case, that is what you would want women to do, right? Jump up and down?
-
Say “no thanks” and get out?
Keep in mind this is not a woman who you’d consider attractive at all (overweight, underweight, big nose, bad hair, too tall, etc). The woman you won’t even notice at the clubs. A woman that looks like Janet Reno, if she is not your idea of womanhood. Would you?
Look, if by work you mean “lead a decent life that makes the desire gender attractive to you”, then both men and women have to work it, but just slightly different angles. And in your selfishness, you won’t notice the “work” women do put.
I’ve been rejected many many many times. Therefore, I have no pity for when men come complaining about their lack of success and blame women for it (instead of improving themselves). Cry me an ocean.
Of course, I’m not sure how long to deal with this, as I don’t like to ask to cross bridges.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down, KarlGrenze.
What makes you think I’ve only ever dated perfect 10’s in my life? (For the record, I haven’t.)
And if I had - or if I preferred hot chicks over not-so-hot chicks, what would be selfish about that?
And what are these bridges you speak of?
Cite?
In 2001, I set an (admittedly no-good) relationship on the path to destruction by thinking, in all seriousness, that the much-maligned “Antioch Sex Code” was the standard on all campuses. I had no idea that making a clear, direct request to take the next sexual step was terribly uncouth.
More broadly, I realized only recently that I had long labored under the illusion that women usually don’t really like men very much, and have to be very gradually and delicately maneuvered through every inch of the process. It’s understandable: Don’t many female stand-up comics talk about how much better the world would be without men? Doesn’t TV always depict females as running away, and slapping men (“Well I never!”) when men initiate contact? Isn’t it a common theme in art and literature and such? I’m thinking about things like the “stretch, yawn, and extend your arm around her shoulders” move.
It’s very clear what the driving force behind this is.
Nothing says studious college student like high heels!
Everyone who’s complaining about treating lack of “yes” as “no.”
Victim testimony is not hearsay.
I think that may be part of the problem here; this is another belief that, if you hold it, you’re not going to like the idea of having to get consent, as opposed to simply not getting non-consent. “If I can only sleep with women who want it, I’ll never get laid,” say people who believe women never want it.
Not to me. Kindly explain, with reference to the specific parts of the policy that demonstrate what you’re referring to.
It’s pretty close. In a system where you’re innocent until proven guilty, victim testimony is important, but only in the presence of more definitive corroborating evidence. Otherwise I could just go around accusing everyone of stealing from me. It also seems to me to be bad form to give victim testimony any more weight than defendant testimony, at least up until the point it’s already become clear what went down through the means of other evidence. Maybe “hearsay” wasn’t the right term, but it still feels incredibly empty when the only people who know what happened are the purported victim and purported rapist.*
- Not to imply that most rape cases are made up, I’m just saying from the perspective of an innocent-until-proven-guilty system whether the defendant actually raped anybody isn’t established yet.
From this thread it seems they never want it enough to try and obtain consent.
I notice you left something out there. Are you asking if we would
pr
To anything? Because at no point do you suggest she had asked for anything. Presumably because that would be implausible. That is the work men must do, because most women, no matter how unattractive they might be, no matter how attracted to a man they might be, will still not willingly do that work, except maybe as an absolute last resort. You also refer dismissively to offering to buy a drink, when in fact you’re more likely to be expected to buy many drinks and meals and to generally pay for the pleasure of her company. That’s the objectionable work.