The problem is the “unambiguous signals” part, especially since unambiguous signals about Step 1 are not valid for Step 2 etc. This can be a problem for some men, since some women tend to be more passive about Step 4.
A better analogy is if you drive your girlfriend’s car with her in it somewhere and she does not say anything the whole way then gets out at the destination and accuses you of kidnapping her because she did not want to go where you drove her.
There are some women who because of previous trauma freeze up when confronted with unwanted sexual advances. Requiring affirmative consent may help some of that, but that is not even close to all sexual assault. It is a fraction of date rape which is a fraction of forcible rape. You are way overselling the benefits of this.
You’re factually incorrect, puddleglum. And believe it or not, in your kidnapping example, you’d be in exactly the same bind as you’d be in if you were accused of rape - how can you prove you didn’t kidnap her? - so I’m not sure you’re making the point you meant to.
What I want to know is, say you’re in this situation. You have what you think is consentual sex with a girl. Afterwards, you find out she only froze up because of her prior trauma, and didn’t really want any. She may or may not think it’s rape, but how are you going to feel about it?
Are you really telling me you’d be all “Oh well, she should have said something?”
I am only personalizing this to try and bring it home. Cause I can’t even comprehend ever being in this situation. If I’m in an intimate situation with a man, and he “freezes up” you’ll be damn sure I’m going to find out what’s going on. And if he pushes my hand away, I’m not going to try again until I find out if he’s comfortable with what we’re doing.
I don’t know. A lot of the men here are saying, “Well, she doesn’t give unambiguous signs, and so then if I listened to the possible nos, then I don’t get to have sex.” And what I’m telling you is that right there is the attitude that needs to change. No, you don’t get to have sex. So? That attitude - that somehow men are entitled to sex or that it’s worth pushing just a little, if they pressure her just a little, has got to go away.
You can’t compare women and men in this regard.
Why not?
I mean, I may agree with you, but you haven’t said why. You’ve just issued a statement and left.
I don’t believe it is a “fraction” of date rape, or at least, not a small one. I suppose 8/10 is a fraction, sure. No, I don’t have a cite, because these are precisely the most underreported rapes: the ones where the victim feels like s/he was at least partly at fault and can’t prove anything. But I’ve done a lot of healing work with sexual abuse/assault victims and I work in first aid at a half dozen festivals where, unfortunately, assault sometimes happens. MOST date rape, in my experience as a shoulder to cry on/first responder, seems to be of the “I didn’t say no, but I didn’t really say yes,” or “I didn’t say no loud enough,” variety. Much more common than being roofied or held down/tied up and physically forced. Including in my personal experience (1 attempt at drugging, 1 forcible perpetrator, more than I care to admit where I didn’t resist but cried buckets as soon as I felt safe to do so.) No, I wouldn’t consider bringing a legal charge of sexual assault if I didn’t say no, but what I didn’t say did not help the situation any. I learned to be more assertive on both my nos and my yeses as I got older, and my sex life has vastly improved as a result.
I just found out that someone very close to me did this several years ago. I’m shocked and horrified, and I don’t know how to look him in the eye. He’s a good, good person. He just…didn’t hear her say no. She told her mom (one of my very best friends) that. “I didn’t say no loud enough.” And so he put his penis into an unwilling girl. That’s horrifying, and I don’t know how to put it aside and go on with our relationship (we’re not lovers and he doesn’t know I know). But at least now I know why he tried to kill himself and developed a short term drinking problem a few years ago. He himself was horrified at what he’d done when he found out she wasn’t game. There’s no reason, absolutely no reason, why either of them should have had to go through this. Just…listen for a yes. Don’t accept a lack of no as consent. Why is that so hard?
I’ve discussed this earlier in this thread.
Women are more apt to give mixed or misleading signals than men, and some women tend to be more passive than men, who are expected to take the initiative generally.
So if a man acted the way you describe, it would be a very strong sign that the guy is unwilling, much moreso than with a woman. Conversely, by you reacting by pulling back in that situation you would not be sending out your own signal of disinterest to the same extent that a man would.
This does not settle the issue of course - I’m merely making a point about the comparison of men and women in that situation.
[An analogous comparison would be a woman advising a man to sit back and wait for women to ask him out on dates instead of taking the initiative himself because “that’s what I do and it works for me”.]
Does that actually fix the problem, or does it simply change from “I didn’t say no loud enough” to “he wanted/pressured me to say yes, so I did”?
In these particular cases the problem is that the women is not declaring her intent clearly. They are physically able to speak, but are emotionally unable to make that step. Does the man fix this by demanding a clear answer about what she wants?
Men are also encouraged to be bold, confident and self assured when interacting with women, does that allow for the woman to say no, or does he have to switch gears and tiptoe into the subject, to make it easier for her to say no?
Can’t we meet halfway? Teach everyone to be assertive *and *respectful, no matter what their plumbing?
I highly doubt if you can.
The disparity in assertiveness is most likely ingrained, considering that it’s the same way with animals (as a general rule at least).
But even if it’s cultural, it’s very pervasive and broad and far beyond the scope of rape prevention education.
It’s so hard because no one does it. Do you get affirmative oral consent every time you initiate sex with your SO? Maybe you do, but I think that would be extremely unusual. Going back to the U. of Iowa’s guidelines:
So if someone is relying on their past relationship with a person as implicit consent, they are violating this policy.
Why’d you add “oral” to “affirmative consent?” Because it makes it seem less reasonable?
I guess I’m not seeing why this is a problem. Every time I’ve had sex - EVERY SINGLE TIME - I’ve received multiple statements of consent, usually loud enough so that we became somewhat self-conscious when we returned to lucidity. The closest thing to coercion I’ve ever done is take out the garbage in a blizzard, after which she figured she kinda had to come across (good-naturedly, of course). I honestly wouldn’t have it any other way.
That’s not what it says.
Often I get oral consent (and consent to oral 
), but I always get clear unambiguous actions. I’ve also known the man for 10 years, and unlike the University, I do believe that a prior relationship in which we’ve given each other future permission to have our way with each other absent a clear no does change the rules. If we were merely dating and hadn’t discussed a blanket consent, I’d make sure the oral consent was oral and repeated each time.
Yes, actually, every darn time. We talk it through, how climax is going to happen, where its going to happen, sometimes that its not going to happen with any sort of penetration of me at all because I’m just not feeling it. And we’ve been married 18 years - if we need that sort of constant verbal communication during sex, when by now he is pretty tuned into what I like and I’m pretty tuned into what he likes, I can’t imagine how much miscommunication could occur if I had a lover I didn’t know as well, which could result in me in a penetration situation I did not agree to.
I would not go to the police and turn myself in for sexual assault, would you?. The disconnect is that this is not a matter of morals and mores, it is a matter of crime and punishment. My own morals in these matters are much more restrictive than anything contemplated by any public university. The difference is that I would not seek to codify my own morals into rules for others in this area. If this were just a matter of a public education campaign it would be one thing, but this is about labeling acts as sexual assault and rape. Those are felonies which carry stiff prison sentences and a lifetime as a registered sex offender.
University policies aren’t laws. They don’t define felonies, dictate prison sentences or mandate registrations.
Perhaps I’m reading this wrong, but are you saying that you discuss how and where you/your husband will reach orgasm each and every time before and during sex?