When you are in a sexual situation, you need to ask yourself “is my partner here of his or her own free will” - did they come to a place appropriate for sex with no pretense (i.e. you didn’t push your way in to use the phone after she told you she was going in, and then make your move- to dredge up one of the last old threads on this), are they under any physical coercion (they can leave - if you are in HER apartment - maybe she doesn’t feel like she can leave - did she ask you to stay there - its probably not at bad idea at some point to say “maybe I should go” and see if she say “no, stay.”). Are they under economic coercion (you paid for a fancy dinner and she feels some sort of obligation - in which case just say it "look, I’m not the kind of guy who thinks you need to put out just because I took you to Le Petite Snobbery, but I really do like you and if you really want to do this, I want to do this.) Are they sober - if they seem to drunk to be making good decisions, be a gentlemen - if she jumps you (and that’s ok with you), go for it, but “I’ll sleep on the couch” is the gentlemanly thing to do. Has she seemed unbalanced - is there something odd about her which would make you think she’d come onto you under the impression that you’d beat her if she didn’t. If there isn’t any reason to think she might be unbuttoning her shirt because she’s being coerced, you are probably safe to take that as affirmative consent - but if you are still so bad at reading people that you don’t know - ASK! “Are we going to have sex?”
And when its confusing to you - ASK. Use your words. Clarify. Generally speaking, someone you are having sex with should be someone you know well enough to have a goddamn conversation with.
And maybe the middle of sex is not the time to see whether she is into rape fantasy. You have a conversation at some point once you’ve had plain old vanilla consensual sex - do you like to be spanked? What are your fantasies? Are there any I can help you act out?
(Note those are really creepy questions on a first date. They are probably creepy questions after the first plain old vanilla sex unless when you stayed over, you noticed the handcuffs attached to the bedpost - in which case - hey, conversation starter)
I’m not worried about accidentally raping someone. I’m worried (hypothetically) that normal activities, like having sex with a long term girlfriend without explicitly getting consent each time, is in violation of policies like this.
And if she doesn’t care, are the policy police going to arrest you - how will they know? And if she does care, shouldn’t you be getting consent every time? And if you don’t trust her to go all psycho bitch on you and suddenly start claiming that she didn’t give consent - why are you having sex with her?
But the point LinusK was making, and to which you were responding, was that women don’t necessarily want to be asked. Because this itself takes away the illusion.
This doesn’t necessarily apply to you and it’s not about you personally, or any number of other women. But just because you like to do all this talking about exactly what you intend to do, as you’ve described here, doesn’t mean that a lot of other people won’t find that off-putting and mood/fantasy-killing.
Really, I don’t think that is true. I have never met any woman (and in case you can’t tell, I’ve been in some oddish circles where this sort of this is discussed) where the illusion was so important that you didn’t discuss boundaries beforehand. Maybe during the enactment of the fantasy - that’s why you have safe words. But in order to have safe words, by definition, you have had to have the discussion ahead of time.
And if you meet someone for whom the distinction between fantasy and reality is such that the illusion can’t be broken with a discussion ahead of time - I wouldn’t recommend having sex with that person because who knows what their interpretation of fantasy and reality will be in court.
Sounds like you’re talking more about hardcore BDSM, where the potential danger is overt and safe words are a priority. People in ordinary relationships are not thinking along those lines and the risk/reward is different.
Actually, I’m talking about enacting rape fantasies, which is what The Flame and the Flower is - its a historical romance that contains a rape fantasy (yes, I’ve read it too- they are called bodice rippers for a reason). Don’t play rape fantasies with people who you don’t have EXPLICIT consent to do so with. Get that consent in advance.
Anyone have normal sex can talk about it.
OK. I am not familiar with The Flame and the Flower. But it’s equivalent to BDSM for purposes of my comment above.
I agree with you about anyone intending to act out any rape fantasies and do some bodice ripping. We’re discussing situations that are a lot more subtle and ambiguous than that.
Yes, it is, which is why I’m responding to that, since that was the specific example LinusK used in his “what women really want can be culled from romance novels” example. You may be talking more subtley - there is nothing subtle in those sorts of novels. They are rape fantasies - which - hey, women have and men have and people act out - but if you are going to start assuming that women want to enact rape fantasies and don’t want communication because that would spoil the illusion - you are probably far more likely to rape than to please her.
When we are talking more subtle, then I still don’t get why, if you aren’t sure, you can’t talk. Is that really so offensive to other women that it spoils the mood - because no woman I’ve ever talked to has kicked a guy out of bed that she is into because he says “is this ok or are we moving too fast.”
It’s not an either/or situation. Full blown rape fantasies are closer to the extreme edge of what a lot of women feel more generally as a desire to be “taken”, i.e. having the man do the main initiation and being the main actor. I discussed this in my first post to this thread (addressed to you).
The fact that there’s an enduring popularity of literature, aimed at women and appealing to this type of fantasy - to one degree or another - suggests that there are a lot of women in this category.
This doesn’t have to apply to you specifically. And a lot of other women. There are all types. But a lot of women like an assertive self-confident man and/or like to feel “taken”. And what LinusK is saying - and I agree with - is that constantly asking women if they want you to take Step 1, Step 2, and so on, conflicts with this image which many women find attractive and with the role that many women would like to imagine themselves playing, and will ultimately not be attractive to these women.
Of course, that does not mean that it’s a good idea to just decide that a women “really wants it” if she clearly sasys or indicates that she does not, or - to use an earlier example suggested here - to go ahead when the woman is crying and saying it hurts. The more complicated situation is where the signals are more ambiguous or conflicting.
And, once again, if the signals are ambiguous or conflicting, ask. Or stop. Is her potential “fantasy” encounter worth risking a rape? Or even regretted sex? As one possibility you have given this woman some sort of unspoken fantasy sex experience that you are projecting onto her - given your extensive knowledge of female interest in romance literature and its application in reality to sexual relationships - and as another possibility you will inadvertently do something she will describe to her friends as rape. Or where she doesn’t use the rape word - she simply says to her girlfriends “yeah, what an asshole, and bad in bed.”
So I’m getting this vibe where, basically, men are fed up with women wanting them to hear ‘yes’ before going ahead when said women will not clearly say ‘yes’.
How hard is it to ask her ‘do you want to have sex - yes or no?’ and walk away if the answer is anything other than ‘yes’?
Yeah, you might not get laid that night, and it sucks. But guess what? There’s also no way you’re going to get a false rape accusation either! And just like how we need to be prepared for sex to result in a pregnancy every time, we need to be prepared to ask for consent. And as we prevent pregnancy by doing things like using protection, we prevent issues of consent by making sure both partners clearly want to have sex.
My personal thought? Men want to have sex so badly they’d rather try and slip in under a ‘well, she didn’t verbally tell me no!’ rather than risk losing the opportunity to have sex by seeking clear consent.
Here is another one of the things I don’t get - you need to have the birth control/STD discussion, right. I mean, I haven’t had it for years, but I remember it happening - sometimes sort of in the middle of things. “Yes, I’m on the pill, but you will still use a condom” (pant, pant, pant). Seems like its pretty easy during THAT conversation to confirm SEX will happen - I mean, maybe it isn’t a clear “yes” but “do you have a condom” seems like a fairly unambiguous communication unless we are making water balloons. Or does that conversation ruin the mood as well, and we aren’t just risking rape, but we enjoy risking pregnancy and STDs as well? I mean, I know the whole condom thing isn’t usually a feature of your basic romance novel (though a lot of the moderns ones include it), and that might put a damper on the fantasy - but it is reality of sex in this era if you aren’t in a long term monogamous relationship.
You’re wrong. People can consent to acts that are painful to them: they do it all the time.
I can’t speak to the other ones, but I damned sure wished I could fight in the battle of Gondor, and face the Nazgul. I wanted to do everything that Bilbo did, as well.
Frankly, this may be more disturbing than your opinions on sex. That you’d WANT to be in a battle that is hand to hand combat with swords.
You can’t speak for all women.
So you’d agree, then, that some men and women like the feeling of being out of control?
Not all communication is verbal. Non-verbal communication can be more powerful, particularly when it comes to sex.
Your description of women - that they’re afraid to say “no” because you paid for dinner. - sounds more like you’re talking about children, not grown adults.
I read LotR when I was a teenager. I’m turning into an old man now. My days of sword fighting are behind me.
Edit: but yeah, when I was a teenager, I would signed up to fight side-by-side with Gandalf in a heartbeat. How could you not, when the fate of Middle-Earth hangs in the balance?