The concept of affirmative consent for sexual encounters

[Hershele_Ostropoler]

@Anaamika

In addition to what Dangerosa says…so what? Nothing would have happened. Do men have no self-control? If she says ‘no’, then stop. If she wants you to continue, she’ll find a way, and if she doesn’t, or doesn’t find a way, and you don’t have sex, OH WELL. It’s not the end of the world.

That seems to me to be where these conversations always break down: “what if she assents, but in Czech?” Um, then you stop.

Look, if you don’t fuck her, and all the other dudes she pulls this shit on don’t fuck her, eventually she’s going to say “gee, why am I not getting any?” and someone will tell her “probably because you keep saying ‘no’”. And chances are it will take longer for that to happen than it will take for you to find someone who’ll say “yes” straight out.

And I’m a straight dude, Fotheringay-Phipps, I do know what it’s like for men.

@treis

Do you get affirmative oral consent every time you initiate sex with your SO? Maybe you do, but I think that would be extremely unusual.

You keep adding “oral” and ignoring the “or by clear, unambiguous action” part. I never have sex with my girlfriend if I don’t think she’s down with it. If I’m not sure, I ask. That said, looking back, I’m pretty sure I have had affirmative oral consent almost every time; most of the rest, consent was obtained by SMS. But it wasn’t like the robot lawyer approach I’m pretty sure you’re envisioning.

And all that “the existence of a dating relationship between the persons involved or the fact of a past sexual relationship should never provide the basis for an assumption of consent” means is that you can’t claim that the fact or duration of the relationship constitutes consent. It doesn’t mean you can’t bring to bear everything you’ve learned over the course of the relationship about reading their signals.

@WhyNot

I do believe that a prior relationship in which we’ve given each other future permission to have our way with each other absent a clear no does change the rules. If we were merely dating and hadn’t discussed a blanket consent, I’d make sure the oral consent was oral and repeated each time.

If you’ve discussed it, that’s more than just “the existence of a dating relationship between the persons involved or the fact of a past sexual relationship.” The affirmative consent is in the discussion.

@treis

I’m not worried about accidentally raping someone. I’m worried (hypothetically) that normal activities, like having sex with a long term girlfriend without explicitly getting consent each time, is in violation of policies like this.

Which it actually is. Of course, with a long-term girlfriend you’re likely to have a pretty good handle on what is and is not consent.

@Dangerosa

Seems like its pretty easy during THAT conversation to confirm SEX will happen - I mean, maybe it isn’t a clear “yes” but “do you have a condom” seems like a fairly unambiguous communication unless we are making water balloons.

Unless you are determined to declare any reasonable interaction normal humans are likely to do in advance of sex to be ambiguous.

[Ibn_Warraq]

I’m genuinely stunned by the claims of the various guys on this thread who are seem to be seriously petrified over this law and take seriously the idea that they could wind up being falsely accused of rape after having consensual sex with a woman.

Look, I’ll concede to having twice tried to kiss a woman who I thought wanted to be kissed and it turned out didn’t want to be and I’d just misread signals, but that’s hugely different than having sex with a woman and finding out afterwords she hadn’t wanted to have it.

Guys, life isn’t a movie. As evidence, the women I tried to kiss didn’t suddenly slap me across the face and cry out “What kind of girl do you take me for!” but instead were rather shocked, embarrassed, and actually in both cases feeling a little guilty that they might have done something that I misinterpreted.

[Aeschines]

I think the rule is pretty well and carefully written.

Look, I’m pretty sure this rule was written not with the intention of micromanaging students’ sexual interactions but to help prevent dumbass dudes from doing stupid/evil stuff.

Stuff like raping a passed out girl: she didn’t give affirmative consent, so don’t do it.

The rule says that a past dating relationship doesn’t automatically mean consent is given. Again, this is not (I believe) in essence aimed at a boyfriend/girlfriend who have been going out for years. Rather, it is aimed at a guy who’s dated or hooked up with a girl maybe once or twice thinking he’s got continued access.

Yes, I agree that, on a micro level, the rule has problems. Technically, according to the rule, if grab my long-term girlfriend’s tits from behind, I didn’t ask, and that’s bad. But no one would ever be “prosecuted” by the school for something on that level. Use your common sense!

Also, I have to take issue what some have been saying here about women saying “no” but not meaning it. That just doesn’t jibe with my experience. If anything, I’ve had women come at me unambiguously wanting sex on dates without my even having to bring it up (I’m not saying I’m anything special; I’m saying that, in my experience, women are perfectly comfortable with saying they want to get it on).

Maybe these ambiguous nos come from trying to do “seduction,” from trying to hook up with too many people, some of whom are not all that into it. Maybe you’re doing it wrong–have you considered that? My method is to try to have sex with people who are clearly into me and want to have sex with me, not to try to prod them into it.

[Nava]

@LinusK

Your description of women - that they’re afraid to say “no” because you paid for dinner. - sounds more like you’re talking about children, not grown adults.

Not afraid, but some think that if the guy paid for dinner he paid to “go inside for a cup of coffee”. You know, same as some guys think that if they ask you to marry them you must say “yes” or that if they ask you out and you say no it makes you a bitch? It’s called stupidity, not fear.

Maybe we should come up with a “don’t put your dick in the stupìd” rule.

[BrianJ]

@Dangerosa

Frankly, this may be more disturbing than your opinions on sex. That you’d WANT to be in a battle that is hand to hand combat with swords.

I doubt he meant that if someone came up to him on the street, tossed him a sword and told him to defend himself, he’d be ok with that. Context…

[BrianJ]

@MandaJo

But stopping ALSO works: if by no she meant “Not yet, I am not aroused enough to move on”, then she will clarify that as well when you stop. And by stopping you avoid any chance of a tragic misunderstanding.

Right now we have fathers teaching sons “Look, if when you slip a hand in her pants, she says “No”, go back to kissing and fondling for a while, and then try again. Maybe she will have changed her mind–and unless she says an unambiguous no that second time, you can assume it’s a yes”.

What would be better is if fathers would teach sons “If you slip a hand in her pants and she says no, back off. Keep kissing if you want, or stop entirely. Don’t put your hand down her pants until you get an unambiguous signal, like she asks you to, or she takes your hand and puts in where she wants it.”

Why would it be so bad for that to be the policy? What is LOST if that is the policy?

:eek:

I’m going to have to ask for a cite on this.

[grude]

@Fotheringay-Phipps

This doesn’t have to apply to you specifically. And a lot of other women. There are all types. But a lot of women like an assertive self-confident man and/or like to feel “taken”. And what LinusK is saying - and I agree with - is that constantly asking women if they want you to take Step 1, Step 2, and so on, conflicts with this image which many women find attractive and with the role that many women would like to imagine themselves playing, and will ultimately not be attractive to these women.

There are some women who will never unambiguously state they want to have sex, almost like they want to maintain the pretense that they were “taken”. It is weird but it absolutely exists. I was once so confused by bizarre and conflicting signals it took her yelling sarcastically if she had to lay naked on her bed all night. That was as close to verbal confirmation I was going to get.

I don’t have any good advice.

[BrianJ]

@grude

There are some women who will never unambiguously state they want to have sex, almost like they want to maintain the pretense that they were “taken”. It is weird but it absolutely exists. I was once so confused by bizarre and conflicting signals it took her yelling sarcastically if she had to lay naked on her bed all night. That was as close to verbal confirmation I was going to get.

I don’t have any good advice.

@Nava

Maybe we should come up with a “don’t put your dick in the stupìd/crazy” rule.

(Can you do strike-out on this board?)

[MandaJo]

@BrianJ

:eek:

I’m going to have to ask for a cite on this.

This trainwreckis a good start.

[Cheesesteak]

@Nava

Not afraid, but some think that if the guy paid for dinner he paid to “go inside for a cup of coffee”. You know, same as some guys think that if they ask you to marry them you must say “yes” or that if they ask you out and you say no it makes you a bitch? It’s called stupidity, not fear.

It’s not the job of men to protect women from their own personal stupidity.

The inability to clearly say no in a dating situation is like driving without a steering wheel, or brakes, then blaming the other drivers for not getting out of your way. When the date starts going a direction you don’t want, you, as a full adult participant in the date, need to be able to do something about it.

If you can’t, you really shouldn’t be dating, because you’re putting yourself in a situation totally outside of your control, and relying onthe other party to direct the activities in a way that you want, without you needing to communicate those desires.

[Dangerosa]

@BrianJ

I doubt he meant that if someone came up to him on the street, tossed him a sword and told him to defend himself, he’d be ok with that. Context…

Nor was that what I was talking about. I was talking about participating in something very much like a huge medieval sword battle with cavalry - where you watch your comrades get trampled and taken out by stray arrows. Where swordfighting has less to do with finesse that whether you get attacked from the backside and ganged up on. Where, unless you are the lucky few, you don’t have armor - and if you have armor, it means you can only see directly in front of you and hear almost nothing (and its damned uncomfortable). Where the ground becomes slick with blood and brains and is churned mud (or dust) and the sounds of battle and the screams of the dying. Where, if you are lucky enough to be on the winning side, uninjured, you still have people to mourn. Where you start fighting at dawn and fight until its dark, when you rest - listening to the dying on the battlefield - until the next day Where if you are injured, there is little that can be done for you medicinally. You know - what the Battle for Gondor would have actually been like.

[LinusK]

@Nava

Not afraid, but some think that if the guy paid for dinner he paid to “go inside for a cup of coffee”. You know, same as some guys think that if they ask you to marry them you must say “yes” or that if they ask you out and you say no it makes you a bitch? It’s called stupidity, not fear.

Maybe we should come up with a “don’t put your dick in the stupìd” rule.

I’m not sure where you’re going with the “don’t put your dick in stupid” rule - and I’m married, now, so I’m basically celibate (j/k - kinda) - but back in the day I failed even the “don’t put your dick in crazy” rule, which is way more hazardous than the stupid rule. At least stupid won’t call the cops and make shit up to get you arrested because you don’t want to see her anymore. When you’re 20 you can’t eliminate 3/4 of the female population when your chances of getting laid are minuscule to begin with.

Anyway, to get back to LoTR - I don’t want to sell myself short here. If Gandalf showed up at my door even today I’d still go with him. Maybe just a little more trepidatiously.

[BrianJ]

@MandaJo

This trainwreckis a good start.

I was specifically questioning the statement that fathers are sitting their teenage sons down and giving them advice, good or bad, about how to get women to sleep wtih them.

I don’t see how a pit thread supports that claim. I can break down my concerns of the specific quote I was referring to if you like.

[BrianJ]

@Dangerosa

Nor was that what I was talking about. I was talking about participating in something very much like a huge medieval sword battle with cavalry - where you watch your comrades get trampled and taken out by stray arrows. Where swordfighting has less to do with finesse that whether you get attacked from the backside and ganged up on. Where, unless you are the lucky few, you don’t have armor - and if you have armor, it means you can only see directly in front of you and hear almost nothing (and its damned uncomfortable). Where the ground becomes slick with blood and brains and is churned mud (or dust) and the sounds of battle and the screams of the dying. Where, if you are lucky enough to be on the winning side, uninjured, you still have people to mourn. Where you start fighting at dawn and fight until its dark, when you rest - listening to the dying on the battlefield - until the next day Where if you are injured, there is little that can be done for you medicinally. You know - what the Battle for Gondor would have actually been like.

Yes, real life rarely lines up with peoples fantasies. I agree.

[even_sven]

@Cheesesteak

It’s not the job of men to protect women from their own personal stupidity.

The inability to clearly say no in a dating situation is like driving without a steering wheel, or brakes, then blaming the other drivers for not getting out of your way. When the date starts going a direction you don’t want, you, as a full adult participant in the date, need to be able to do something about it.

If you can’t, you really shouldn’t be dating, because you’re putting yourself in a situation totally outside of your control, and relying onthe other party to direct the activities in a way that you want, without you needing to communicate those desires.

Being raped is not “a date not going in the direction you would like.” It’s being raped.

And yes, it is absolutely your responsibility not to rape anyone.

[MandaJo]

@BrianJ

I was specifically questioning the statement that fathers are sitting their teenage sons down and giving them advice, good or bad, about how to get women to sleep wtih them.

I don’t see how a pit thread supports that claim. I can break down my concerns of the specific quote I was referring to if you like.

Oh. I thought you were objecting to the idea that anyone ever thought it was ok to keep pushing a woman after a clear no, and that a clear no is a “mixed signal”. How do you think this knowledge gets passed from generation to generation? I don’t have a cite, but I think it’s not at all unheard of for fathers to give sons advice on what is and is not appropriate with women. My husband’s stepfather certainly did.

[Nava]

@LinusK

I’m not sure where you’re going with the “don’t put your dick in stupid” rule - and I’m married, now, so I’m basically celibate (j/k - kinda) - but back in the day I failed even the “don’t put your dick in crazy” rule, which is way more hazardous than the stupid rule.

No, but she’ll do crap like forget to take the Pill and then not get the pregnancy confirmed until it’s too late for a legal abortion.

[Cheesesteak]

@even_sven

Being raped is not “a date not going in the direction you would like.” It’s being raped.

And yes, it is absolutely your responsibility not to rape anyone.

I refuse to be bullied by the word rape.

If the difference between getting raped and having the rapist you just dated go home immediately is “Y’know… I’d rather not have sex”, maybe women who date should act like adults and make their feelings known.

Because, frankly, a rapist, a felon who deserves a long stint in prison and lifetime designation as a sexual offender isn’t going to be stopped by “I’m tired, can you go home now?”

[Der_Trihs]

@BrianJ

(Can you do strike-out on this board?)

[del]No[/del], I mean yes.
(del)stuff(/del); just replace the () with symbols.

[BrianJ]

@MandaJo

Oh. I thought you were objecting to the idea that anyone ever thought it was ok to keep pushing a woman after a clear no, and that a clear no is a “mixed signal”.

My apologies, I thought bolding the sentence was sufficient to indicate the text I was referrring to.

How do you think this knowledge gets passed from generation to generation?

I do not agree with the concept that this is learned behaviour. Any parent I have ever known would find it embarassing and awkward enough to pass on a lesson about the birds and the bees, never mind a ‘how to’ lesson.

It’s far more likely that the boy is acting on his own instincts, because he has never been taught the right and wrong ways to interact with girls.

I don’t have a cite, but I think it’s not at all unheard of for fathers to give sons advice on what is and is not appropriate with women. My husband’s stepfather certainly did.

If that was the advice your husband’s stepfather passed on to your husband, he should be locked up for child abuse. However, your exact quote claims this is something that happens now. I assume your husbands experience was at least 20 years ago?

And yes, as far as I’m concerned, it is unheard of.

My brother in law is a jerk, (imo). He treats my sister like crap and does nothing to discourage his kids from doing the same. he is controlling, argumentative and all around not pleasant to be around.

However, there is no way in heck I can picture him sitting my nephews down to lecture them on how to get their girlfriends to have sex. Nor can I picture the boys sitting still and listening to their father give them such a lecture.

The likely scenario would be for the boys to be horrified that their dad would even attempt to discuss this with them. They would run from the room with their ears covered yelling lalalalala.

Seriously, this just doesn’t happen. No kid I’ve ever met, including from my own teenage years in the 70s, would ever sit still for something like that. No kid wants to have love lessons from their parents. They don’t even want to consider the possibility that their parents ever had sex.

No parent I’m aware of would ever willingly broach such a subject with their kids either.

Another thing I find unlikely in your scenario is that the mother wouldn’t have any say in what the father is teaching her kids. It seems like a scenario out of some 1950’s teen exploitation movie than anything resembling real, modern life.