The concept of affirmative consent for sexual encounters

This is a declaration of university policy, not a definition of the term “rape.”

I don’t agree with your premise, but even putting that aside, a policy like this at least makes it easier to pursue investigations and prosecutions at the campus level.

The question of whether you will, or will need to, lie or not, isn’t relevant–the question is how they will handle “he said/she said” cases. This policy doesn’t specify.

I take a look at that site and I see something pretty damned gender-neutral in its audience. In fact it looks quite a bit more female-directed than male-directed to me. Or is that what you’re saying? I guess I don’t know what you’re saying about the page.

If that’s the argument then “seeking affirmative consent” is pointless, since if women are so spineless that they won’t so much as say “no” because they are too on-script or too terrified of men, then there’s no reason to think that they wouldn’t lie and say “yes” when they mean “no” for the same exact reason.

The entire concept is very sexist, and outright Victorian in its attitude towards women being helpless objects of predatory men. The entire concept only works if you go with that archaic concept of women being totally helpless and submissive, unable to so much as say “no” to a man. In fact it undercuts the entire idea of female equality; if women were actually as helpless as such policies assume, then not only would they not be equal to men they’d be completely unable to live independent lives. For that matter if women were this helpless feminism would have never existed, probably never even been conceived of.

What is it about the images or words contained on the linked page that leads you to think that sexist sentiments are being expressed, implied or presupposed?

The entire concept is sexist and will be implemented in a sexist way because that’s the point. Face saving rhetoric is beside the point. No one is going to do anything but laugh at him if a man claims he was “raped” because he just couldn’t bring himself to say no. The entire idea only makes sense if you are working under the tradition that women are passive, helpless lumps; and there is no such tradition about men.

Just for clarity’s sake, can you tell me what you meant in the last two posts when you referred to “the entire concept”? What, exactly, is the concept you’re saying is sexist?

ETA: You also called it “the entire idea,” so I guess what I’m asking is, the entire idea that what?

The concept that someone - inevitably women - supposedly can’t even say “no” to sex.

No, no, no. The context here is crazy/stupid, not non-consent. A half-baked cake, so to speak.

But that concept is not expressed, implied or presupposed in the linked page. As I said, it’s a statement of university policy. The university is telling you how it will define your actions and how it will react to them. It is not telling you what you or anyone else are or are not capable of. It is just telling you how it will react to certain acts you or others may undertake.

The page does not say “some people are unable to say no, therefore, you must not have sex with them unless they say yes.” Instead, it simply says, “You must not have sex with anyone unless they say yes.” You’re reading a premise into it, as though it were giving a justification for this rule. But it doesn’t give any such justification. It simply states what the rule is. It’s up to the reader to abide by it, or not.

Moreover, it is not making a philosophical or conceptual claim about what “consent” means. It is simply telling what, for its purposes, it will count as consent.

It’s interesting to wonder why they think the rule is a good or necessary one. It seems you think the cause of this is an assumption that some women are too weak to say no to sex. I don’t know what your argument is that such an assumption lies behind the policy. Your view appears implausible to me. Unless you can give me an argument for it, “it seems implausible” is all I really can–or need to–say.

What seems more likely to me is that the cause of the rule is that the university is trying to avoid legal entanglements, and as a legal matter, has decided that unambiguous affirmative consent is the most efficient way to make sure that its own legal responsibility for non-consensual sex can be minimized.

Yeah, It’s interesting. Der Trihs obviously either will or won’t explain himself as most suits him, and I can’t speak for him, but what I see from his post is the same thing I see from several posters on both sides of the issue, a sort of reflexive push away from the middle that takes a reasonable point and presents it unreasonably.

I think in the middle we’ve got this decision to administratively require affirmative consent for sex, and to say that sex that takes place without it is misconduct. This decision of course is motivated by the trend toward criticizing large institutions for having cultural influences that (allegedly, I guess) fail to prevent sexual assaults and simultaneously discourage the reporting of sexual assaults, which is to say the sort of hypothesis being tested is that too many people are harmed by sexual assaults, and that people’s tolerance of ambiguity as to consent is part of that problem. That’s the “whole idea,” it seems to me, or at least what the whole idea ought to be. And, I mean, there’s a lot we could observe about the policy compared to people’s reactions to it - it isn’t the law, it doesn’t say anything about a definition of rape, specifically, only sexual misconduct, and it doesn’t say anything about gender. But at the same time, it’s true that it does, by the letter and probably the spirit, too, make almost all real-world sexual contact a violation. It does represent a radical change in the way normal old sex becomes bad immoral sex, and probably almost nobody in the world has never technically violated the policy.

But really, as soon as the topic is broached, we’re talking about something else entirely. The second sentence of the OP is a misrepresentation, and we’re off and running talking about something that is related, but rhetorically very different.

On the one hand there’s this group whose main concern is the unfairness of the conflicting societal expectations of masculine assertiveness and respect for female autonomy. Through this lens, the Der Trihs kind of posts about how sexist it is to expect affirmative consent are perfectly rational: any guy who has been on at least a couple of dates with your average heteronormative kinds of girls has probably had an experience where he didn’t make a move and lost at least a bit of appeal because of it, and you don’t need to consume much popular media to pick up fairly quickly on the fact that this sort of experience tends to linger, psychologically speaking. Lesson: if you’re a guy and you don’t want to miss opportunities, you can’t come off as hesitant or diffident, ever. Sometimes no means yes, and all that, right. If you look at it from this perspective, the policy is nonsensical: asking is like literally the last thing it would ever be OK to do, because you’re actually saying out loud the thing that you don’t want the girl to think about you: “I’m not sure.” If this is where you’re coming from, you’re going to either get angry about the idea of affirmative consent, or you’re going to ridicule it, or both. Which is pretty much what this thread’s been about - men are now being punished for enjoying sex and traveling the well-worn footpaths that lead there?

Then on the other hand, you’ve got the feminist side, which not to hide the ball or anything is the side I’m on, that approaches this from the starting point that we’ve got a group of people - a fairly large one, by almost all measures, incidentally - who are being harmed by sexual assault. Which means you’re looking for solutions to that problem, focusing on the victims of the harm, instead of the motivations of what you’re going to be classifying as violators of the policy. Through that lens it makes a lot of sense to look at what the group of people being hurt have in common, and what you find is that again and again, there’s this violation of boundaries that seems to stem from a certain sense of entitlement. There’s this act of seizing upon ambiguities to push push push, and where there’s enough push back, there’s no technical assault, just a really awful experience, and the almost-villain is free to try it again with the next person, because hey, push push push. And this is where “no means no” comes from. And from this perspective, when you hear the facts of life about how a guy has to get his mack on and what’re you gonna do, you’re going to get angry or you’re going to ridicule it or both. So one side thinks this is sexist because they all know that in any given interaction, you’re much less likely to seem cool / get laid / get the next date / find true love if you aren’t confident and badass all the time because honey badger takes what he wants. And that’s actually generally true, which makes it hard to dismiss. The other side thinks that’s sexist because sexual assault is a serious problem that we as a society are trying to fix, and honey badger isn’t helping, because literally every time you have a sexual assault, you have a person who was confident and assertive about their desires and went for it, damn the unambiguous preference of the victim. And that’s also definitely true, which makes it hard to dismiss.

And those two things are in conflict with each other, even though they’re both grounded in reality as far as I can tell. So you end up with group 1 hyperbolizing about a girl changing her mind and making every man a dangerous scary rapist registered sex offender, ruined lives, and why can’t a woman say no for herself, and group 2 hyperbolizing about you aren’t going to die if you don’t have sex in the next 12 hours, use your words like a big boy, and maybe you should stop dating crazy insane women who give mixed signals, creepy rapey fratty mansplainer.

And you end up with comparatively fewer people who are prepared to say, well, it does seem to be true that this will put people in a pretty difficult situation vis a vis their sexual partners, and will be shall we say “overinclusive” by the letter of the law, but maybe in practice this is the best compromise.

Nobody’s advocating a life of celibacy, but that a the likely outcome, if you were to follow some of the advice in this thread.

Imagine if we had a rule where judges had to ask female lawyers directly if they had an objection. Or if a company had a policy where all female employees needed to be asked directly if they were comfortable with their assignments. Obviously, those policies would be incredibly offensive. So what’s the difference with sex? Why am I obligated to treat my partner like a child and ask her “are you sure you want to do this?”?

I am deeply ambivalent about this. On the one hand, I don’t want to do something that the other person doesn’t want to. On the other, I don’t like the implication that women are inherently weak and that it is up to men to protect them.

?

You seriously don’t see how a woman lying on a bed in the background with her pants in the foreground is a sexual image? Here’s the message of that page:

See that thing on the bed? Yeah, she’s hot, but do you know what would make her hotter? If she affirmatively consents to sex! That would make you such a super stud!

Jimmy Chitwood, I am saving your post to my “Favorites” menu in my browser.

A very clearly irrelevant observation. The policy to imagine is one where judges had to ask every lawyer, male or female, if they had an objection. IF it turned out judges only almost always only implemented the policy when it came to woman lawyers, then the implementation would be sexist, but not the policy itself.

She looks like she’s sleeping in. There’s literally nothing sexy about the image, whatsoever. I mean, obviously given the context of the words on the page and maybe the foregrounding of the shoe, I know we’re talking about sex. but an image which refers to sex is not by any means necessarily “sexual” or “sexy.” This is not a sexualized image designed to entice men to think about the woman as a sex object. What I think about is I hope she’s not late for class.

How so? The policy says you can’t say that being in a relationship constitutes blanket consent. I don’t see what’s silly about that; I do see what’s awful about the alternative.

Me too; the chance that I will accidentally rape someone is around 0, so the miniscule chance I will be falsely accused is higher than that.

If sex with someone who doesn’t want it is normal behavior for a significant portion of the population, that’s the problem

Saying it sarcastically doesn’t make it not so.

Well, cake doesn’t have agency. Cake can’t decide to have gluten based on how it feels about being eaten and how it feels about the would-be eater. Cake doesn’t have feelings, it doesn’t experience pain or trauma.

I thought I was a man, but I’m capable of not having sex with someone, so I guess not.

Only if you assume affirmative consent is not required of men. Which seems to me to be an assumption people are bringing to this, not something built in to the policy. The problem of male rape victims not being taken seriously is not one that changes to this policy is going to solve; that’s going to require a broader cultural shift (I would probably welcome a thread on how to create that shift, but this is not it).

Your argument here seems to be “when they said people, they meant women, and that means they really are going to Minsk, and that’s terribly unfair.”

Thank you, Frylock.

Maybe this is it. Blowing up the notion that sexual assault is something that happens when a meek li’l victim is pummeled black and blue by a shadowy brute without a name seems like a good start toward a broader understanding that it happens to men. And vice versa, for that matter.

I still see a startling lack of imagination when it comes to confirming consent. Nobody is advocating for having to say “Excuse me, ma’am, would you kindly confirm that you would like to engage in intercourse.” There are a million assertive, confident, sexy and smooth ways to affirm consent, from “Baby are you ready for this adjective piece of anatomy?” to “Your condom or mine?”

That doesn’t matter. Plenty of rules and laws don’t state the assumptions they are built on, especially when they are embarrassing ones. For example, “stop and frisk” laws don’t say that they will be used to persecute minorities, but they are. The linked page doesn’t say that only men will be required to extract “affirmative consent” or that any man who demands that a woman do the same for him will be publicly laughed at because it goes without saying.

It doesn’t need to.

Because that’s the assumption that fits with our culture, and because nothing else makes sense.

Nonsense; I’ve explained myself repeatedly.

A rule like this isn’t likely to do a thing to stop sexual assault. And again; if a woman or man for that matter can’t say no, they they are not able to function independently in society, and not just sexually. If there are actually any women out there like that*, then I expect they are constantly trampled over by everyone else both men and women; their sex lives are only a minor consideration, their entire life will be a continuous disaster.

*I expect that any woman who is genuinely that helpless is homeless or in a mental institution, not in a university

And the “feminist side” in this is that men are evil predators, male sexuality is intrinsically evil, and women are utterly passive, helpless victims. Seriously, if a man said that women are too weak or cowardly to say no he’d be labeled a horrible troglodyte racist - but that’s the position the feminists are taking. For an allegedly pro-woman philosophy, feminism has very little respect for women.

Something that by your own admission condemns pretty much everyone alive as a rapist is hardly much of a compromise.

I think people are assuming The Consent Discussion or The Sex Discussion is a one-time thing and isn’t (and cannot be) an ongoing process. In that model, if she doesn’t say “yes” at the right time, it’s the equivalent of not saying it at all; one can see how people who believe that would be resistant to the idea that lack of “yes” is “no”.

If I were to say that not only did I explicitly point out that this was not the case in the same post you’re mischaracterizing, I predicted your mischaracterization of it while I was doing it, would you feel private shame while you continued to ignore the point?

We’re talking about cake that wants to be eaten here, just to be clear. This is crazy-cake, not rape-cake.

I’m with you you in that boat. As you age, your sex drive drive starts to decline, thankfully. One of the few blessings of getting older.

Of course, not everybody’s the same. Some people are completely asexual. Lots of people are in the take-it-or-leave it category. Just trying to point out not everybody is.