the conquest of Europe: DRUG FUELED FANTASY #2 about the eurocrisis

[anthonymortadella]

I hear tell that German banks are a major contributor to the Greek loan packages, and according to polls, a majority of Germans do not, understandably, want to loan the Greeks one cent more. So the good Frau Kanzlerin should listen to her constituency and just not do it this time around. (“This time around” being about… oh, end of August?) That should be enough of a push to prevent the Greeks from getting the amount of money they will need to stay solvent, shouldn’t it? If not, Mrs. Merkel can sweet-talk the Troika into being on her side and refusing loans as well. She is supposed to be very persuasive in Brussels. That effectively pushes the Greeks out of the Eurozone, and they would have to reprint their drachma, I think.

No one seriously claims that Germany is actually trying to conquer Europe, or that Chancellor Merkel is trying to be the new Fuhrer (her bulldog-like finance minister Mr. Schaeuble notwithstanding); nevertheless, the Eurozone is ultimately about the political unification of Europe.

Under noble pretenses of course. I certainly think they’re noble: the goal of the European Union, even way back when it was just the Coal and Steel Coalition of a few central European countries, was always not just to be stronger economically, but to use the dependency between nations that this coalition forged to prevent war from happening between those nations. Think of it, if it works, this could be a prototype for prevention of war all across the globe. Overcome ethnic tensions by forging economic interdependency, thus preventing bloodshed. I can’t think of a nobler goal. Certainly worth devaluing a few Euros for. Although it doesn’t sound like the leaders of Europe really talk about this kind of Ultimate Goal much, I think it still plays in the back of their minds when they continue to extend loan after loan to Greece and balk at it so much; it almost certainly was in the back of Mrs. Merkel’s mind when she recently addressed her Bundestag about the need for a closer political union between Eurozone members. But whether you think the idea of war prevention is all just bunkum or not, the fact is, these irrational loan deals demonstrate a palpable will by governments to push for that ever closer union.

So it’s like someone, never mind who, really is trying to conquer Europe.

Whenever the idea of European conquest comes up, I come up with two names: Napoleon and Hitler. (I’m no history expert, so if any other names come to you, please feel free…) And again, no history expert, but from what little I know of them, I keep coming to the same conclusion: they were unsuccessful because they overextended themselves, never mind the reason or the details or the fact that Hitler was a lunatic. If Napoleon had just stopped before thinking about going to battle with Russia, if Hitler had just been satisfied with his greater Germany … they might’ve kept their empires intact.

So that’s how I feel about Greece. If it doesn’t look like it’s gonna work, don’t push it. Try to salvage what you already have.

[madsircool]

@anthonymortadella

I hear tell that German banks are a major contributor to the Greek loan packages, and according to polls, a majority of Germans do not, understandably, want to loan the Greeks one cent more. So the good Frau Kanzlerin should listen to her constituency and just not do it this time around. (“This time around” being about… oh, end of August?) That should be enough of a push to prevent the Greeks from getting the amount of money they will need to stay solvent, shouldn’t it? If not, Mrs. Merkel can sweet-talk the Troika into being on her side and refusing loans as well. She is supposed to be very persuasive in Brussels. That effectively pushes the Greeks out of the Eurozone, and they would have to reprint their drachma, I think.

No one seriously claims that Germany is actually trying to conquer Europe, or that Chancellor Merkel is trying to be the new Fuhrer (her bulldog-like finance minister Mr. Schaeuble notwithstanding); nevertheless, the Eurozone is ultimately about the political unification of Europe.

Under noble pretenses of course. I certainly think they’re noble: the goal of the European Union, even way back when it was just the Coal and Steel Coalition of a few central European countries, was always not just to be stronger economically, but to use the dependency between nations that this coalition forged to prevent war from happening between those nations. Think of it, if it works, this could be a prototype for prevention of war all across the globe. Overcome ethnic tensions by forging economic interdependency, thus preventing bloodshed. I can’t think of a nobler goal. Certainly worth devaluing a few Euros for. Although it doesn’t sound like the leaders of Europe really talk about this kind of Ultimate Goal much, I think it still plays in the back of their minds when they continue to extend loan after loan to Greece and balk at it so much; it almost certainly was in the back of Mrs. Merkel’s mind when she recently addressed her Bundestag about the need for a closer political union between Eurozone members. But whether you think the idea of war prevention is all just bunkum or not, the fact is, these irrational loan deals demonstrate a palpable will by governments to push for that ever closer union.

So it’s like someone, never mind who, really is trying to conquer Europe.

Whenever the idea of European conquest comes up, I come up with two names: Napoleon and Hitler. (I’m no history expert, so if any other names come to you, please feel free…) And again, no history expert, but from what little I know of them, I keep coming to the same conclusion: they were unsuccessful because they overextended themselves, never mind the reason or the details or the fact that Hitler was a lunatic. If Napoleon had just stopped before thinking about going to battle with Russia, if Hitler had just been satisfied with his greater Germany … they might’ve kept their empires intact.

So that’s how I feel about Greece. If it doesn’t look like it’s gonna work, don’t push it. Try to salvage what you already have.

At what cost? Why should responsible Germans have to finance corrupt Greeks?

[Hari_Seldon]

The greatest myth is that the Germans acted responsibly. The whole idea of capitalism is that you pays your money and you takes your chances. That means if you make a loan that is not paid back, you take your lumps and try to do better the next time. The German bankers made loans to Greece because Greek bonds were at a high interest rate and they knew that Germany would not let them down. They didn’t do due diligence, or if they did, they ignored the results. If they get the same opportunity again, they will do it again because there is no downside for them. Granting that Greece finances were a mess, the banks should not have been made whole.

Needless to mention, the same is true of the US banks and the sub-prime loans. They made the loans and eventually got all their money out thanks to an indulgent government.

It is interesting to contrast this with the experience of Iceland. Their banks went belly up and the government simply cancelled the bonds they had issued. Yes, they couldn’t borrow money, but they rebuilt their economy in a few years. And their social safety net kept the worst effects from happening to the population.

[anthonymortadella]

At what cost? Why should responsible Germans have to finance corrupt Greeks? (madsircool)

Madsircool, I don’t understand your response. The post says Germany should NOT finance Greece anymore.

They didn’t do due diligence, or if they did, they ignored the results. (Hari Seldon)

Thanks for that, Mr. Seldon. (I finally looked up your postname and realized why it sounded so familiar, btw. Thanks for the memories!) I was just gonna go rant on that very point (that creditor nations are at fault). In a new post. I’ll definitely try to quote you.

This post wasn’t really about that though. It was about a comparison of the current Eurozone project with past conquest attempts of all of Europe, and how it might be prudent for the “conquerors” to stop while they’re ahead.